Bethpage Black is the New Baltusrol

[BCyrgalis]

From someone who has played the Black a lot (including three times this year) and has also done some research into it's history, I'm fully behind the bunkers on Nos. 9 and 14.  I think the old No. 9 became a boring driving hole for the long hitter, who, with no hazard in the way on either side, could put one on top of the hill and have a flip wedge into the green.  Now, with the tee back and that fingered, hack-it-up-the-fairway bunker on the left, the drive is more the way Tilly envisioned it -- one where you have to account for the right-to-left slope leading into the hill while trying to leave yourself a good look for a more substantial second.  If you want to try and get to the top of the hill now by carrying it up the left side, you have to challenge a bunker -- and isn't that terrific risk-reward?  No. 9 is a way better hole than it was in 2002.

As for No. 14, I've got to agree with Phil.  With that front tongue, the bunker left was needed.  It would've been an impossible up-and-down from thick rough over there.  (And that front tongue, although not original Tilly, is a cool little addition.)  The back part of the green was also necessary for maintenance, and brings in a variety of options for set-up men like Mike Davis.

The two changes I full-heartedly disagree with are the bunkers left of No. 13, and the softening of the green at No. 15.  The bunkers left of No. 13 are just overkill.  With the new back tee, I can't imagine anyone being able to fully carry the tree on the right, which makes it a substantial obstacle for the drive (which it is, too, if you are going to try and carry it).  To add two deep bunkers up the other side makes a very -- hmmmm -- TRENT Jonesian drive.  Please, just please stop pinching driving areas. 

And I loved the old 15th green.  Maybe they could have extended it in the back and to the right a little -- I am correct, Phil?  What were the size of the original Tilly greens again?  How much bigger??  That was an incredibly difficult hole, and it was one that defined the challenge of Bethpage. You don't see Oakmont softening greens, do you?  It's a damn tough course, one that is publicly proclaimed as not for bad golfers.  Let it be tough!

[Mark McKeever]

I think 9 from the new back tee would be a daunting tee shot even if that bunker wasnt there and it was grown in with some nice heavy rough.  You would have the same penalty if you try to carry the corner and dont pull it off.

Mark

[Phil_the_Author]

Brett,

On average the greens on the Black are at least 25-30% too small as compared to their original sizes. I also am not happy about the softening of the green. I believe it was unnecessary and takes away from teh design intent. Ironically, the 14th green is only about 10% too small in comparison to where its original surfaces were.

Mark, let me know when they have tees set up on the back tee on #9. It simply isn't done for the every day player. It is every bit a "tournament" tee as is the back one on 15, which has yet to be used in competition despite its addition for the 2002 Open.

[Mark McKeever]

Very true Phil.  I wasnt thinking about the everyday tees.  I will agree that from the "old back" tees, it is much easier to blow something over the corner and make it a birdie hole thus needing more visual intimidation for that reason.  If it were played everyday from that back tee, I don't think the bunker is necessary.

Mark

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

Although some long-timers (far better than old-timer!) like me remember playing the 9th from the forward tee at 288 yards, few actually knew that this was the original tee box and that the hole was designed as a type of "Boomerang" hole! It would have been very difficult for one to cut up and over the trees onto the top plateau back in the 30's which is why the fairway went far out and into what is now rough.

By the way, Tilly wrote about designing "Boomerang" holes and even included sketches of one.

[Greg Tallman]

JC,
  It does matter. Why point a finger to someone who didn't do it? And to me, I think players sound like idiots when they blame the superintendent for things architecturally. Do think that he would have pointed the finger at the Supt if he saw Rees or one of Rees guys on the dozer? No, he wouldn't, so it does matter.
 
Noel-Yes, I am aware that SOME of the chages were done by the superintendent, the prios one actually. BUT, 97% of what has been don't a BB has ONLY been for the better and 97% of the golfers will noticable love playing BB, regardless of a change to #15 green. I always thought that 15 green was stupid, to0 little cupping area to be fair and certainly silly at speeds over 11.

Anthony,

I understand that being a super you are probably hyper-sensitive to this.  However, the super, along with the rest of the staff are in the business of customer service and sometimes that means being the outlet for customer complaints.  Especially since the super/head pro are often more accessible than, say, Rees Jones.

Now, whether those comments are relayed to the party responsible or even the party who may be ultimately responsible for whatever is upsetting the customer, well, that is up to whomever received the comments.

JC - With all due respect it is this "I paid therefore I have a voice" mindset that most of the world hate us for. You paid, you got a product that was not as much to your liking as before and it is OK to take it our on some poor guy hand watering a green so that the surface on which you play is better prepared?

Sorry pards that does not fly in my book. I have taken my share of grief over the years and some of it beyond justified and to that all one can do is apologize and compensate if necessary or possible. More and more often though it seems the "complaints" are along the lines of that being discussed here. For the record I will not call this an actual complaint but rather a horrible delivery of one's OPINION to someone who really does not care and certainly not deserving of what I would term verbal abuse. And we all know what is said about opinions...

My apologies for interrupting a design discussion with this but I could not let that go.

[Frank Pasquale]

N,
Did your friend mention the condition of the course?  I played it less than two weeks ago, and it was in the worst shape I have seen it since the late 90's.  The greens were slow and bumpy, and the fairways were extremely beat up.  I am curious to know if they were able to get it to acceptable shape for the Met Open, which is being played this week.

[Noel Freeman]

JC,
  It does matter. Why point a finger to someone who didn't do it? And to me, I think players sound like idiots when they blame the superintendent for things architecturally. Do think that he would have pointed the finger at the Supt if he saw Rees or one of Rees guys on the dozer? No, he wouldn't, so it does matter.
 
Noel-Yes, I am aware that SOME of the chages were done by the superintendent, the prios one actually. BUT, 97% of what has been don't a BB has ONLY been for the better and 97% of the golfers will noticable love playing BB, regardless of a change to #15 green. I always thought that 15 green was stupid, to0 little cupping area to be fair and certainly silly at speeds over 11.

Anthony,

I understand that being a super you are probably hyper-sensitive to this.  However, the super, along with the rest of the staff are in the business of customer service and sometimes that means being the outlet for customer complaints.  Especially since the super/head pro are often more accessible than, say, Rees Jones.

Now, whether those comments are relayed to the party responsible or even the party who may be ultimately responsible for whatever is upsetting the customer, well, that is up to whomever received the comments.

JC - With all due respect it is this "I paid therefore I have a voice" mindset that most of the world hate us for. You paid, you got a product that was not as much to your liking as before and it is OK to take it our on some poor guy hand watering a green so that the surface on which you play is better prepared?

Sorry pards that does not fly in my book. I have taken my share of grief over the years and some of it beyond justified and to that all one can do is apologize and compensate if necessary or possible. More and more often though it seems the "complaints" are along the lines of that being discussed here. For the record I will not call this an actual complaint but rather a horrible delivery of one's OPINION to someone who really does not care and certainly not deserving of what I would term verbal abuse. And we all know what is said about opinions...

My apologies for interrupting a design discussion with this but I could not let that go.

Greg- I am just acting as conduit here, my friend does not have a GCA login and this is his NOT MINE response...

Comment starts here..

Mr. Tallman

I sent a small snippet of a summary quickly to a friend and here is more of the whole story.  Regardless, I disagree with your summary.

There is a mindset out in the public that Bethpage Black is universally praised by their NY fanatic customer base who want “a US Open experience”.  While I’m certain that a % of regulars are in that camp I felt it important to try to convey to the powers that be FROM a Player on the grounds and who has been there for over 40 years rather than from  a random email that changes based on a 4 day tournament every 10 years does not sit well.  The comments were specifically directed to get to whoever built the horrible new bunkers, softened the 15th green and directed day to day maintenance practices of narrowed fairways and forced the most difficult angles of attack on holes rather than intended strategies. They were not directed at the worker.   I go out of my way to tell work crews that I appreciate the improved playing surface as I do at my home course which has also had a miraculous transformation by a great superintendent.  Why should a passionate former defender of the course he loved so much ignore the situation? Your comments were misguided.

To answer other questions and comments

The conditions were far worse than any I have experienced since the original Rees restoration. Certainly they were not up to a Met Open standard and I can see lots of white areas marked off as GUR.

With all due respect to Phil, the bunker on 9 was totally unnecessary. Rough can be maintained at different levels for general public play and tournament conditions regardless of which tee is in play.  In fact, I would contend it’s a far more difficult hazard as a bunker for general play because it won’t be uniformly raked and maintained from day to day like it will in a tournament. Higher rough would be more of a hazard to a tournament player. It was SILLY and UNNNECESSARY. My opinion from numerous plays over 41 years.  Again with respect to Phil, who cares about making it “fair” for a tournament every 10 years with regard to the bunker on 14? Putting the tee all the way on the right and using that little finger  for a pin was pretty benign in the last US Open.  It did nothing to enhance the hole. I don’t even think they used a pin in the FAR back right at all. I would love to go out there with you when you see the 15th green. If it doesn’t bring a tear to your eye I would be surprised.

[Greg Tallman]

JC,
  It does matter. Why point a finger to someone who didn't do it? And to me, I think players sound like idiots when they blame the superintendent for things architecturally. Do think that he would have pointed the finger at the Supt if he saw Rees or one of Rees guys on the dozer? No, he wouldn't, so it does matter.
 
Noel-Yes, I am aware that SOME of the chages were done by the superintendent, the prios one actually. BUT, 97% of what has been don't a BB has ONLY been for the better and 97% of the golfers will noticable love playing BB, regardless of a change to #15 green. I always thought that 15 green was stupid, to0 little cupping area to be fair and certainly silly at speeds over 11.

Anthony,

I understand that being a super you are probably hyper-sensitive to this.  However, the super, along with the rest of the staff are in the business of customer service and sometimes that means being the outlet for customer complaints.  Especially since the super/head pro are often more accessible than, say, Rees Jones.

Now, whether those comments are relayed to the party responsible or even the party who may be ultimately responsible for whatever is upsetting the customer, well, that is up to whomever received the comments.

JC - With all due respect it is this "I paid therefore I have a voice" mindset that most of the world hate us for. You paid, you got a product that was not as much to your liking as before and it is OK to take it our on some poor guy hand watering a green so that the surface on which you play is better prepared?

Sorry pards that does not fly in my book. I have taken my share of grief over the years and some of it beyond justified and to that all one can do is apologize and compensate if necessary or possible. More and more often though it seems the "complaints" are along the lines of that being discussed here. For the record I will not call this an actual complaint but rather a horrible delivery of one's OPINION to someone who really does not care and certainly not deserving of what I would term verbal abuse. And we all know what is said about opinions...

My apologies for interrupting a design discussion with this but I could not let that go.

Greg- I am just acting as conduit here, my friend does not have a GCA login and this is his NOT MINE response...

Comment starts here..

Mr. Tallman

I sent a small snippet of a summary quickly to a friend and here is more of the whole story.  Regardless, I disagree with your summary.

There is a mindset out in the public that Bethpage Black is universally praised by their NY fanatic customer base who want “a US Open experience”.  While I’m certain that a % of regulars are in that camp I felt it important to try to convey to the powers that be FROM a Player on the grounds and who has been there for over 40 years rather than from  a random email that changes based on a 4 day tournament every 10 years does not sit well.  The comments were specifically directed to get to whoever built the horrible new bunkers, softened the 15th green and directed day to day maintenance practices of narrowed fairways and forced the most difficult angles of attack on holes rather than intended strategies. They were not directed at the worker.   I go out of my way to tell work crews that I appreciate the improved playing surface as I do at my home course which has also had a miraculous transformation by a great superintendent.  Why should a passionate former defender of the course he loved so much ignore the situation? Your comments were misguided.

To answer other questions and comments

The conditions were far worse than any I have experienced since the original Rees restoration. Certainly they were not up to a Met Open standard and I can see lots of white areas marked off as GUR.

With all due respect to Phil, the bunker on 9 was totally unnecessary. Rough can be maintained at different levels for general public play and tournament conditions regardless of which tee is in play.  In fact, I would contend it’s a far more difficult hazard as a bunker for general play because it won’t be uniformly raked and maintained from day to day like it will in a tournament. Higher rough would be more of a hazard to a tournament player. It was SILLY and UNNNECESSARY. My opinion from numerous plays over 41 years.  Again with respect to Phil, who cares about making it “fair” for a tournament every 10 years with regard to the bunker on 14? Putting the tee all the way on the right and using that little finger  for a pin was pretty benign in the last US Open.  It did nothing to enhance the hole. I don’t even think they used a pin in the FAR back right at all. I would love to go out there with you when you see the 15th green. If it doesn’t bring a tear to your eye I would be surprised.

From the original post "A worker was watering and I told him to convey to the super that Rees is a hack who is ruining the golf course."

At the worker, to the worker... not really a difference in my book. Misdirected commentary that is merely your opinion, to which Isuppose you are entitled but would be better served expressing to the correct people in a more constructive manner. Use of the word "hack" would tuned most out from the get go.

[Noel Freeman]

Okay, I'll put up a response (AGAIN, NOT MINE) to Greg's comment.. I won't keep going back and forth so this is the last one..

Mr Tallman

Thank you for side tracking a discussion of a golf course that is uniquely beloved by generations of New Yorkers and which in my eyes is being butchered for the sake of the publicity of a US Open Championship taking up one week every 10 years.  If Phil’s motto is “Golf for the people baby” then certainly the people (on both sides) have every right to express their opinion and attempt to get it to people within the administration of the golf courses. It was done with respect to the worker and clearly not directed at him.

Baltusrol is I believe a good comparison with Bethpage although BB was in its original state a better golf course then Baltusrol at its peak.  Both have been turned into experiments on how to possibly maintain par for the elite golfers of the world yet keep the greens “fair” and at the expense of members’ enjoyment. There needs to be more protest from within – members and daily paying customers – to stop all the “Open Doctors” be they Rees Jones, internal committees or other architects who would covet the title.

[Matt_Ward]

Noel:

Thanks for this thread.

BB is better than Baltusrol Lower in my mind -- the rolling terrain and scale of the LI course is miles beyond the one in Sprngfield.

I do agree that a few of the changes made have not added to the lore and legacy of the Black. I would have much preferred the wild and wooly look and for some real creative thinking on what the 18th hole can be.

I've had the pleasure in playing BB for well over 30 years and no less than 200 rounds there. I have always been a big time fan but the Black's six-hour death march rounds and the desire to have rough and narrow corridors in near-similar US Open conditions is unnecessary.

BB is an excellent course but it can't be all it can be with adjustments that are clearly out of place and fail to honor what made the Black so great from the get go. Just my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here are his thoughts--

PS- I played Bethpage Black for the first time in a couple of years on Saturday. I've been playing it since 1969 and as my home course for several years when I lived on LI. Rees totally ruined the 15th green.

Does he know if Rees did this on his own ?
Does he know if Rees had unrestricted artistic license to change the course including the 15th green ?
Does he know if the decision to alter the 15th green was made by others, such as Craig Currier and other parties ?

The whole back section is flattened and enlarged a bit with the slope to the bottom tier not nearly as severe.

With higher and higher green speeds, wasn't that the purpose ?
 
It's not even the most interesting green on BB any more.  Very sad.  

A worker was watering and I told him to convey to the super that Rees is a hack who is ruining the golf course.

Do you or your friend really think that that worker gives a crap about your friend's opinion of the golf course ?
Do you or your friend think that the woker conveyed the message to the Super ?

If your friend feels so passionate about the course why doesn't he write a letter to the Super, copying the Parks Authority and Rees. detailing his objections, and signing his name.  Talk is cheap, especially when it's directed toward an innocent viictim/unrelated party

With the horrible bunker on #9, left side fairway bunkers on 13, ugly green and greenside (left) bunker on 14 and other changes related to maintenance and fairway angles Bethpage Black is the newest Baltusrol.

That's interesting.  I played Baltusrol Upper yesterday and thought Rees's work was very good.
What does your friend object to on the Upper ?

Some work has also been recently completed on the Lower.
What, specifically, does your friend object to with respect to the recent work on the Lower

It has gone to a great favorite of mine and the place I got interested in architecture to a place I don't really care if I ever play again.

That's his loss.

Changes on the upper to holes like the 2nd, 4th, 9th 13th 14th have all been for the better.