[Patrick_Mucci]

Par 3's are purely target golf.
You go from point "A" the tee, to point "B" the green.
Granted there's some variety in your approach, but you golfing challenge/test is fixed, mandated with little room for alteration.

Whereas, on a par 4 or par 5, your golfing challenge/test is flexible/varied.

Understanding the architect's goal of providing a suitable examination of the golfer's skills, which challenge/test is preferable, the fixed, mandated test, or the flexible, varied test, espeically when it comes to a REDAN.

While I may feel that both forms of challenge/tests are valid and necesary, when it comes to the REDAN, which is the better test ?

[PCCraig]

Pat:

I don't think so.

I just played Blue Mound CC outside Milwaukee, a Raynor design, which features a par-4 redan as the 1st hole (about 410 yards) and a par-3 redan (190yard shot) as the 13th hole. The green on the par-3 was certainly more severe and I think that's a by product of it being a fixed shot, like you said above. The par-4 is more subtle but I think it has to be if approaches are more varied.

To me, it's more fun to see a really cool aggressive redan with a big slope and some real hazards from a fixed point than a calmer version that depending on the angle you're really not playing a redan approach.

[John Moore II]

Pat-If we are to assume you mean to test the better players who can bebefit from angles it is a good idea to do what you say here. However the hole would have to be pretty long in order for the angle to matter. Angle is much less important with a 9 iron than with a 4 iron. But sure put a redan green on a 475 yard par four and I love the idea. Certainly brings angle and shot making into play; something of a lost art I think. 

[Niall C]

Patrick

Surely the original Redan offers a variety of options given the fluctuation of conditions ie wind conditions. Thats what its all about, a high cutty one into the wind or low runner or whatever. You don't need to make it a par 4 or 5 to make the shot to green more varied, the options are limitless depending on how you try to hit the shot.

Niall

[Mark McKeever]

I havent played one that I can think of off the top of my head, but I would love to see a redan par 5.  Can someone name a few to get my memory going?

Mark

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

You say yourself that par threes are "pure target golf" where the challenge is "mandated".

But you yourself have posted on GCA.com about the 5th at Pine Valley and how laying up short of the green and playing for your 4 is a valid and smart play. A few years ago at Oakmont we saw the best players in the world opting at times to lay up on a par three... there are other par threes in the world of golf where playing well away from the pin - or even the green - is very much an option.

I agree that "strategy" comes into play more the more shots you need to play to get to the green, but I disagree when you say that act of choice/decision making is largely absent on one-shotters.

The problem with par four or par five Redans is that the approach is often played from well out of the position for which the challenge of the hole was designed.

[George_Bahto]

"The problem with par four or par five Redans is that the approach is often played from well out of the position for which the challenge of the hole was designed."

Pat do you think the 18th at the Knoll is about a perfect 2-shot Redan?

for others, a vey difficult par-4 now at about 445 from the back but with the new proposed tee it will be more like 475. this voted one of the top 18 holes in the Met area

Sorry - this picture before the restoration

[Tom_Doak]

George:

That's the first time I've ever seen a photo of The Knoll, that I can recall.  But the approach looks to be a bit uphill for the right-to-left feeder shot on the Redan.

I have the same question as Mark McKeever:  have you ever seen a Redan green at the end of a par five?  I don't think I ever have.  I've certainly built par fives where the fairway kicks into the green from one side or the other, but nothing I would really call a Redan.

[cary lichtenstein]

Both 3's and 4's work for me, I haven't seen a par 5 that works, but if you made it 600 yards, that work for me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I havent played one that I can think of off the top of my head, but I would love to see a redan par 5.  Can someone name a few to get my memory going?


Mark,

North Shore has a hybrid Redan/Road Hole par 5, I think it's the 3rd hole.

It's pretty neat.

Niall,

Not all courses enjoy breezes similar to NGLA and UK links courses, thus the wind is much less of a factor in the U.S.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

You say yourself that par threes are "pure target golf" where the challenge is "mandated".

Correct.

But you yourself have posted on GCA.com about the 5th at Pine Valley and how laying up short of the green and playing for your 4 is a valid and smart play.

For me it is if I want to avoid making a 5, 6 or worse, but, the hole remains target golf and the shot the golfer faces from the tee is mandated, he has little if any discretion.  Short of the approach he's dead, long he's dead, left and right he's dead.

A few years ago at Oakmont we saw the best players in the world opting at times to lay up on a par three...

I don't recall that.  What hole are you referencing ?

there are other par threes in the world of golf where playing well away from the pin - or even the green - is very much an option.
If the golfer is playing from tees commensurate with his game I don't see where that's a "viable" option.
# 16 at CPC comes to mind, but, from the proper tees it's target golf with a mandated shot.
The underlying assumption is that the golfer's goal is a par.

I agree that "strategy" comes into play more the more shots you need to play to get to the green, but I disagree when you say that act of choice/decision making is largely absent on one-shotters.

Could you name 10 par 3's where the golfer, playing from the appropriate tee wouldn't aim for the green ?

I'll probably settle for 5.

The problem with par four or par five Redans is that the approach is often played from well out of the position for which the challenge of the hole was designed.

I completely disagree.

Could you name 5 par 4 and/or par 5 redans where that's the case ?

The 1st hole at The Creek and the 12th at Fisher's Island come to mind.
Could you explain how the approach on those holes is played from well out of position for which those holes were designed ?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Although this green probably doesn't have enough front to back AND right to left slope, the 9th at Pasatiempo is a P5 and felt as though my approach shot was similar to that of a Redan:

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Funny you should mention the third hole at North Shore, since I am typing this from the clubhouse (where I ought to be going to sleep now, instead).

I do not see the third green as a Redan type.  It's certainly a Road green.  It DOES have a more severe front-to-back slope than any Road hole green I've ever seen ... most of it is a solid 3% slope toward the back ... but the angle is the same as the Road hole and the green is only slightly banked up on the right.

Funny you should mention it, though, since we are about to convert it to a long par-4 instead of the very short par five it is on the card today.  The back tee will stay where it is, but the middle and forward tees will move up a bit so more players have a chance to reach it with a long second shot.  We will also be doing a bit of cut and fill work so you can see the green more clearly from 180 yards out.

[Scott Warren]

Hi Pat,

As I have already said, I'll go with you that the longer a hole, the more it opens itself up for the golfer to make strategic decisions, but saying that par threes are "pure target golf" is overstating and oversimplifying it.

I'll see if I can work through your comments and maybe we can find a little middle ground.

Pat M, re: 5th at Pine Valley:
For me it is if I want to avoid making a 5, 6 or worse, but, the hole remains target golf and the shot the golfer faces from the tee is mandated, he has little if any discretion.  Short of the approach he's dead, long he's dead, left and right he's dead.

He (or her on Sundays ) can play to the 35-yard-long area of fairway short of the green that requires only a 180-yard carry from the back tee, akin to laying up on the short par four you admitted you thought the hole was when you first stood on the tee.

Here is what you said in this thread:

Playing short and making a 4 is NOT a bad score.

Is a 235-yard hole for a player capable of driving it 190 not the same assignment as a 320-yard hole for a player capable of driving it 275?

Par does not govern strategy, nor does it determine whether a shot is simply a matter of excecution.

Pat M, re: players laying up on a par three in US Open at Oakmont:
I don't recall that.  What hole are you referencing ?

I am referncing the 8th hole

Pat M, after referencing 16 @ CPC as a "target golf hole" from the correct tee:
The underlying assumption is that the golfer's goal is a par.

I thought the underlying assumption was that a golfer is looking to complete each hole in the fewest shots possible? In any case, this has nothing to do with the discussion. Par can be made by laying up and then one-putting on any hole, or even chipping in. Making par is not dependent on hitting the green in regulation.

Pat M:
Could you name 10 par 3's where the golfer, playing from the appropriate tee wouldn't aim for the green ?

I'll probably settle for 5.

The old Pat Mucci "name 10 holes where..." game!

Here are 10 par three holes where a golfer would reasonably play short of or to the side of the green. "Appropriate tees" is a subjective term. If Corey Pavin is playing with Bubba Watson should he move up a set? Talent and length are not inextricably linked.

1. 12th, Royal Dornoch (Struie)
2. 16th hole, Cypress Point (From Ian Andrew's blog: "The only time Dad and I played the hole was into a howling wind. We both lay up and Dad promptly made the putt for par. He said it that was more satisfying than making the carry would have been.")
3. 5th hole, Pine Valley (by your own admission)
4. 6th hole, West Sussex (have done so myself)
5. 13th hole, The Addington (have done so myself)
6. 2nd hole, Woking
7. 14th hole, Deal (have done so myself 5-10 times)
8. 8th hole, Oakmont
9. 10th hole, Penrith (have done so myself 20+ times)
10. 5th hole, Anstruther (The club captain in Today's Golfer magazine: “If you come off it with a par, you’ve done well, very well. Only the really good, brave or daft actually go for the green.")

To my claim that par four or five Redan holes were not as effective as par three Redans because the approach shot was not from a prescribed position, you said:

Could you name 5 par 4 and/or par 5 redans where that's the case?

The 1st hole at The Creek and the 12th at Fisher's Island come to mind.
Could you explain how the approach on those holes is played from well out of position for which those holes were designed?

I'm not sure I can name five, but both the 7th at Royal Sydney and the 10th at Chart Hills come immediately to mind.

A Redan-inspired green sets up to a particular approach. It's certainly very playable from other approach points, but there are also approaches where what makes Redan such a great template and concept is diminished.

I'll have to pass on the Fishers Island and The Creek examples as I'm not familiar with either yet.

My main point, Pat, is that absolutes in golf design very rarely exist. Every player is different and every day dawns bringing a new set of conditions both on the ground and in the air.

[Kevin Pallier]

Although this green probably doesn't have enough back to front AND right to left slope, the 9th at Pasatiempo is a P5 and felt as though my approach shot was similar to that of a Redan:

Brett

Dont you mean front to back slope ? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George:

That's the first time I've ever seen a photo of The Knoll, that I can recall.  But the approach looks to be a bit uphill for the right-to-left feeder shot on the Redan.

I have the same question as Mark McKeever:  have you ever seen a Redan green at the end of a par five?  I don't think I ever have.  I've certainly built par fives where the fairway kicks into the green from one side or the other, but nothing I would really call a Redan.

Tom Doak,

Stop by North Shore the next time you're on Long Island, it's not far from LaGuardia.

The 3rd hole has a combo road hole and Redan green.
It's a par 5.

North Shore has a lot of great green complexes and the 9th is a Redan par 3.

It's interesting that some of CBM/SR courses have redan greens on par 4's/5's and par 3's, such as The Creek and North Shore.

[JESII]

George:

That's the first time I've ever seen a photo of The Knoll, that I can recall.  But the approach looks to be a bit uphill for the right-to-left feeder shot on the Redan.

I have the same question as Mark McKeever:  have you ever seen a Redan green at the end of a par five?  I don't think I ever have.  I've certainly built par fives where the fairway kicks into the green from one side or the other, but nothing I would really call a Redan.

Tom Doak,

Stop by North Shore the next time you're on Long Island, it's not far from LaGuardia.

The 3rd hole has a combo road hole and Redan green.
It's a par 5.

North Shore has a lot of great green complexes and the 9th is a Redan par 3.

It's interesting that some of CBM/SR courses have redan greens on par 4's/5's and par 3's, such as The Creek and North Shore.

Patrick...this has to be saved for posterity...

[JESII]

Because a few hours earlier...

Patrick:

Funny you should mention the third hole at North Shore, since I am typing this from the clubhouse (where I ought to be going to sleep now, instead).

I do not see the third green as a Redan type.  It's certainly a Road green.  It DOES have a more severe front-to-back slope than any Road hole green I've ever seen ... most of it is a solid 3% slope toward the back ... but the angle is the same as the Road hole and the green is only slightly banked up on the right.

Funny you should mention it, though, since we are about to convert it to a long par-4 instead of the very short par five it is on the card today.  The back tee will stay where it is, but the middle and forward tees will move up a bit so more players have a chance to reach it with a long second shot.  We will also be doing a bit of cut and fill work so you can see the green more clearly from 180 yards out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"The problem with par four or par five Redans is that the approach is often played from well out of the position for which the challenge of the hole was designed."

Pat do you think the 18th at the Knoll is about a perfect 2-shot Redan?

George, as you know, The Knoll is one of my favorite golf courses.
I never viewed the 18th as a Redan due to the angle of attack and orientation of the green, but, from the right side of the fairway/rough, it certainly presents like a Redan.

It's a wonderful hole and a great finishing hole.

I'd like to re-examine the right side of the green to see if there's evidence of a deflecting shoulder.

for others, a vey difficult par-4 now at about 445 from the back but with the new proposed tee it will be more like 475. this voted one of the top 18 holes in the Met area

Sorry - this picture before the restoration

[Niall C]

I havent played one that I can think of off the top of my head, but I would love to see a redan par 5.  Can someone name a few to get my memory going?


Mark,

North Shore has a hybrid Redan/Road Hole par 5, I think it's the 3rd hole.

It's pretty neat.

Niall,

Not all courses enjoy breezes similar to NGLA and UK links courses, thus the wind is much less of a factor in the U.S.

Patrick

Certainly agree with your comments about wind but throw in fast and firm and it becomes less target golf and more how you shape the shot. Now I should say that I've only played the original a few times (4 or 5 ?) and can think of only two conventional copy Redans on Scottish courses that I've played, one by MacKenzie and one by Old Tom/Braid and both of them on parkland courses, so I've no great experience on a f&f Redan but any green which offers contrasting contours on the same green thereby providing varied options on how to approach the hole can't be that mandated a test IMHO.

Niall

[George_Bahto]

Pat, it'll kick you in left to about the first third of the green but if the super     keeps it short-cropped above the hole and you get up in there you often trickle back into the middle of the green ...... "if" being the key word

it plays more "redan-ish" from the right side of the fairway than the left

certainly not as good an example as a 2-shot Redan as is Fishers Island 12 and Essex County 17, for sure

[Michael Barnett]

I think the concept of a Redan being "better" on a Par 4/5 is highly dependent on the length of the hole and what type of approach the player is left with.  Essex County 17 is a fine example of a reverse Redan green, however, the hole can only play up ~390 yards.  If the bigger hitter can shape his ball into a relatively narrow fairway, he is left with a short iron/wedge approach, negating some of the challenge of the green complex.  John Moore makes an excellent point here, this type of execution can nullify many of the green's characteristics.

However, should the better player fail to find the fairway he is usually left with an extremely challenging approach and many decisions abound (whether to lay up or take an aggressive line, potentially bringing the shoulder/back bunker and disaster into play).

I tend to think the challenge of this type of green complex creates a fantastic set of questions on the tee box of this or another Par 4.  Potentially shape Driver/3-Wood and be able to take on the green with a short iron or lay back and leave a traditional mid/long-iron into the Redan which must be fed in correctly to get close to the hole.

My experience would suggest that with the Redan as a green on a Par 4/5 more questions are put in the mind of the better player from the outset, whereas on the Par 3, the challenge is far more straightforward.  I am not sure which is better; to dictate to the player the specific requirements from the outset and force execution (Par 3) or allow a player who understands the green's unique challenges to play the hole according to his strengths (Par 4/5). 

I find each type quite thrilling, but if forced to choose one, I prefer the variety of shots that a well-designed Par 4/5 might afford to the Par 3. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Funny you should mention the third hole at North Shore, since I am typing this from the clubhouse (where I ought to be going to sleep now, instead).

I do not see the third green as a Redan type.  It's certainly a Road green.  It DOES have a more severe front-to-back slope than any Road hole green I've ever seen ... most of it is a solid 3% slope toward the back ... but the angle is the same as the Road hole and the green is only slightly banked up on the right.

Funny you should mention it, though, since we are about to convert it to a long par-4 instead of the very short par five it is on the card today.  The back tee will stay where it is, but the middle and forward tees will move up a bit so more players have a chance to reach it with a long second shot.  We will also be doing a bit of cut and fill work so you can see the green more clearly from 180 yards out.

Tom Doak,

Not long ago I was with a bunch of golfers who played at North Shore in the MET Sr Amateur.
Everyone of them commented on how spectacular they thought the green complexes were and how much fun it was to play that course.

The 3rd green is a pretty difficult green to hit in two, from 180 and beyond, and, it's not the easiest green to recover to.
It's a little weak as a par 5.
I don't recall if there's much room to move the tee back, but, as a par 4, it'll be more than a challenge..

I'm interested in your suggestions for improving # 11, which plays awkwardly.

North Shore is one of those sporty courses that's fun to play.

Good luck with the project.

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