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TEPaul

Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« on: August 19, 2010, 11:26:27 PM »
Kris is a good friend who knows golf really well because he's had a very solid background in golf. Promoting and preserving the institution of caddying in American golf is his real passion and excellent proposal (if you don't mind me saying so myself).

Kris is originally from Philadelphia; he lives now with his Scottish wife in the Jacksonville, Florida area, the regional home of the original Timucuan Indians of which Tommy Birdsong, the architect of the world's greatest hidden gem, Fernandina Beach Municipal GC, is one.

Welcome to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com, Kris, and always remember---if you agree with about 2% of what Mucci says on here and about 98% of what I say, you will be just fine for basically all time to come!

By the way, Kris and his brother et al of the very up and coming Shreiner Tree Service around Philadelphia were the excellent hosts of the excellent cookouts at the 2009 Walker Cup at Merion and the 2010 AT&T tournament at Aronimink.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 11:30:47 PM by TEPaul »

Simon Holt

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 04:44:27 AM »
The word great is banded about too liberally in golfing terms IMHO.  The word 'great' is not out of place when describing the kind of guy Kris is.

I caddied for him as an 18 year old at North Berwick back in the late 90s.  In that 3 hours to say we hit it off doesn't quite cover it.  Since then we have played together in Monterrey, Santa Cruz, San Fran, Dornoch, NJ and Penn to name a few.  His has helped me along the way and as I got older I found myself being able to reciprocate which is always a pleasure and something I get a real sense of pride out of. 

We need more people like Kris in golf.  His ideas on revitalising the caddy tradition across the world are revolutionary and his passion for change is infectious.  He also hosts a mean BBQ!!!

Welcome in pal, long overdue!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Mike Cirba

Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 07:23:45 AM »
Kris is The Man!! 

Welcome Kris.  ;D

Mac Plumart

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 07:38:23 AM »
Welcome Kris!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 07:48:39 AM »
Welcome aboard Kris!

If you can post as much as 2% of the number of posts TEPaul and Mucci do, you'll be doing well ;D

PCCraig

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 08:21:17 AM »
Welcome Kris! Looking forward to hearing some of your thoughts on the preservation of caddy programs here in the US.
H.P.S.

Tom Dunne

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 09:12:13 AM »
Kris,

That was a super luncheon you threw at the Walker Cup last year--really enjoyed meeting you there. Welcome aboard.

TEPaul

Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 11:29:24 AM »
Simon Holt:

That's nice what you said about Kris. I think I've known Kris for maybe 2-3 years but we talk a lot. I'll tell you something for certain about Kris----that man can sure talk; he can REALLY TALK! I just don't know what the hell will happen when I introduce him up in NJ on Sept 17 to Pat Mucci who can talk more and faster and more incessantly than even Kris can but I'll tell you something else; the two of them together have got to be filmed with a really good audio component to it!!  ;)

Gene Greco

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 12:07:07 PM »
    Welcome, Kris!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 04:48:49 PM »
The word great is banded about too liberally in golfing terms IMHO.  The word 'great' is not out of place when describing the kind of guy Kris is.

I caddied for him as an 18 year old at North Berwick back in the late 90s.  In that 3 hours to say we hit it off doesn't quite cover it.  Since then we have played together in Monterrey, Santa Cruz, San Fran, Dornoch, NJ and Penn to name a few.  His has helped me along the way and as I got older I found myself being able to reciprocate which is always a pleasure and something I get a real sense of pride out of. 

We need more people like Kris in golf.  His ideas on revitalising the caddy tradition across the world are revolutionary and his passion for change is infectious.  He also hosts a mean BBQ!!!

Welcome in pal, long overdue!


Simon,

Monterrey is in Mexico.


Bob

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 06:29:04 PM »
Thank you all for the warm welcome and kind words. I've been a lurker for quite a while and felt I would join when it felt right. I've got tremendous respect for what Ran has created in this forum.

The participants, in the main, bring a level of knowledge,passion and appreciation for the game rarely seen elsewhere. I along with others, have become concerned with some of the negative elements that have surfaced periodically. Gentlemen and ladies, we can strongly discuss our points WITHOUT baiting, antagonizing, degrading or besmirching others. Show some class!

This awesome resource we all are fortunate to participate in will have its standing and reputation lowered, and deservedly so, if we don't tidy up our act. There are some of the best minds in golf participating, AND LOOKING IN, on this great Golf Club Atlas site. Let us, with warmth, humor and an eye to the intelligent, continue to share and elevate this site to where it belongs...the most stimulating golf discourse on the planet.

I've said my piece and look forward to meeting more of you in the future and enjoying spirited conversation in between!

Bob,  Simon and I had some nights that started in Monterey, but damn near ended up in Monterrey!

Yours on the links....cheers,

Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 01:55:03 AM »
Kris is a good friend who knows golf really well because he's had a very solid background in golf. Promoting and preserving the institution of caddying in American golf is his real passion and excellent proposal (if you don't mind me saying so myself).

Welcome Kris! As someone who has caddying to thank for a lot of who I grew up to be I would love to learn more about your promoting and preserving the institution of it in American golf.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

PThomas

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 09:40:38 AM »
Hi Kris...since you are a good friend of Tom's...the rest of us will help steer you back on the right path ;)

pls tell us about some of your favorite courses
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 10:48:47 AM »
I'm pleased, and not at all surprised, of the interest by many on this site, in supporting caddie golf. In my view, great archictecture AND the caddie dymanic are inextricably linked. They are like good wine and cheese. Sure, you can have quality wine on its own, just like playing a great course without a caddie. You can also have a great caddie experience on a mediocre golf course.  But when you combine a superb layout AND a quality caddie dynamic....NOW folks, you really have a special day.

In addition, I look to history... for validation... that caddie golf has defined and sustained our great game for centuries. From Tom Morris, to Francis Ouimet, to Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson, to Angel Cabrera, the caddie ranks have produced championed that cover the inscriptions of every major golf trophy worth anything! This, despite some rather sad efforts, in the past, to bar them from competing. I encourage all who really want to learn about this sport's evolution, to stretch yourselves a little and read more about caddie golf, past and present. I think you will be moved to a greater appreciation for all the rich contributions this single, greatest source of the games differencemakers has provided for golf.

My current question, where has been , and IS, the level of "reinvestment" in Caddie Golf by those administrative bodies and industry folks, that have, and continue, to profit so handsomely from the game? Please spare me the excuses, "Cart revenue, it's expensive to take a caddie, kids are lazy today, we can't support caddies in this economy. While there is certainly some validity in those claims, at the end of the day they are excuses. Let's approach Caddie Golf as we should approach anything worthwhile. Focus on how and why we SHOULD support a rewarding endeavor, not why we can't.

If ten's of millions of dollars can go to First Tee, surely something that has made the titanic contributions to golf that Caddie Golf has, deserves proper nurturing and support. That IS NOT happening at present. It needs to, and will, change...or the future of the game will be much poorer on many levels. The countless folks, many of modest means, who found the game,were taught by, played courses designed by, watched championship play of ...those who have caddie roots to thank... is immense.

I'll attempt, with some insights from interested folks on this site , to determine what can be done about better supporting Caddie
Golf. As this site is devoted to Golf Architecture, that will be the focus of the majority of my posts. I do believe, however, that great ground for golf, offers the perfect presentation, when combined with the caddie dynamic of quality.

Paul, A warm hello! Some of my favorite courses? Stateside, in no particular order: LA North, Pebble, Spyglass, Cypress, Pasitempo, SF, PG Muni-Ocean nine, dynamite the other!), Stevinson Ranch, Palatka Golf Club, Hyde Park, Merion, PV, Gulph Mills, Stonewall, Radnor Valley(where it all began for me), Oakmont, Oak Hill, Cape May National(except for one hole!),Cobbs.

Overseas: The Old,  Kingsbarns,North Berwick, Jubilee, Carnastie(flat-out toughest track I've evey played!)Prestwick, Machrihanish Dunes(for what it represents and could become), Brora, Royal Dornoch, Durness.

I've got significant gaps, Midwest stateside and England, Wales, Ireland  in U.K. The rest of the world, well...someday I hope!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Matt Harrison

Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 11:22:27 AM »
Welcome, Kris.  Great to have someone passionate about architecture and caddying- I appreciate your thoughts so far on caddying.

And- always good to see a Brora mention!

TEPaul

Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 12:11:07 PM »
Patrick Hodgdon:

Since you mentioned what you think caddying has done for you I will now mention my one and only caddying experience.

Sorry Kris, in my opinion, you've had enough warm welcomes for a while and now it is time for "TEPaul Story-Time."

I think it was in like the mid-1980s and it involved Charlie Bolling, a guy from my club who was arguably the most successful player in Pennsylvania that year or few years. Charlie turned pro, went on tour abroad and won the South African Open.

This was in the USGA qualifier in Philadelphia for the US Open, but I can't remember now if Charlie was still an amateur or a pro at the time. It seemed to be a lock for Charlie and me (by the way, I just LOVE when a player and caddy together refer to themselves as "WE" ;) ) because the two sites for the 36 hole qualifier were Philly Country Club which he knew like the back of his hand, and so did I, and then GMGC, our home course.

So off "WE" go to Philly CC for the first round with me caddying for my very first time. Charlie, who was quite a bit younger than me, just told me to stay out of his way, to not bother the other competitors and not talk too much. So off we go at PCC with Charlie striping it right down the middle and the generally "Chatty-Kathy" TEPaul following along with his lip fairly well zipped.

"We" were the medalist at PCC, so off we go back to GMGC thinking this is a total lock!

"We" get to #8, a very short and imminently birdeable hole for the likes of Charlie, but a potentially dangerous hole if played too aggressively off the tee! I haven't said a thing and Charlie pulls out his driver which really surprised me because he was under par at GMGC anyway and a total lock, at this point, on qualifying and even being the over-all medalist.

So, I said very calmly and quite quiety, "Ahh, Charlie, do you think that club is a good idea on this hole considering how "WE" stand right now. You could just hit an iron in front of the ponds and birdie this thing anyway!?"

Without much discussion he hits his driver----a beautiful shot for sure that begins to draw over the pond and right at the green and BOOM right into the top of the big Willow tree on the other side and it ricochets backwards and into the pond!! That was a pretty quiet and pensive walk down to the pond. But "We" pulled ourselves together, found the last point of entry, and decided to play it behind the pond. He hits a lovely wedge outta da rough but unfortunately a bit too low and BOOM right into the top of that willow tree again, and ricochets backwards and into the pond again.

Well, it was pretty much all downhill after that and on the 18th Charlie felt he may need to make eagle just to qualify and he damn near did but nevertheless "We" turned in an atrocious score at OUR home course (where Charlie still holds the course record, by the by) and "WE" missed qualifying for the US Open by ONE single measily pathetic GOLF SHOT!! I mean that honestly----that single shot that missed qualifying for the US Open was actually the smallest, teeny-weeny little golf shot I have ever known!!

Of course it was basically not "He" but "Me" of the "We" who mostly caused it to happen and so the whole failure of the day was all my fault and that was actually the first and LAST time I ever caddyed, Patrick!

At some point, I will tell you some really cool stories about the famous "Sherman," my Dad's regular caddy in the 50s and 60s in Florida when Dad was arguably one of the best amateurs in the state. I will only whet your appetite by telling you that Sherman actually lived at the Daytona Beach City jail in what back then was referred to as "The Open Door Policy."

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 12:27:51 PM »
Tom, that story...is a great one! Notice though...how the architecture...THE TREE...really determined the outcome. You can blame yourself, but the reality is, you were right! Maybe you shouldn't have said anything (although I think most quality caddies would have done the same), but at the end of the day, the iron calll largely takes that tree debacle out of play. Amazing how the entire flow of play during a around can sometimes be totally derailed because of one hole, even one shot.
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Mac Plumart

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 12:50:31 PM »
Kris...

Interesting posts and timely for my purposes.  On my latest golf trip, I discussed charitable endeavors that would benefit the game of golf.  I  began contributing to the National Amputee Golf Association last year and will continue that into the future.  I am completely on-board with supporting the caddy program, but not all the places I've played at seem to support caddies. 

Notable exceptions are East Lake and Inverness, which have very robust caddy programs.  Inverness seems to be attached to the Evans Scholar program, while East Lake has the Charles Harrison Scholar program. 

Are you aware of any other caddy programs that would be worthwhile to support? 

Do you recommend either or both of the programs mentioned above?

Do you have any thoughts or feelings on the First Tee program?

Thanks...and I am excited to see you have become a member of the site.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 04:36:15 PM »
Mac, If I may call you that?  Great cause supporting the National Amputee Golf Association! If you wish to IM me your contact details I'd be happy to discuss further thoughts on caddie golf and would also like to support that organiztion you just mentioned.

In fact, wouldn't it be cool to have some interested caddies partner, to assist amputees, enjoy a round on a caddie course now and again...complimentary of course..both the game AND the caddies would waive any fee! How cool and deeply rewarding would that be?!

See Mac, it is these very moments, when we are stimulated by other's thoughts, to contribute to betterment of the game, through shared experiences, that really stoke what I feel this wonderful site can deliver. If we constantly put the game FIRST, and what we can gain by sharing, the other benefits just seem to tumble from that. I've gotten so much from the game, and know I will NEVER be able to repay it to my total satisfaction...but I will die trying!

To your questions. I'll try to be brief, but it's hard because there are a lot of layers.The reality is, only a smaller number of total facilities, worldwide, will ever be able to support caddie golf. That said, is is no coincidence in my view, that nearly ALL of the truely, great golf courses, that have stood the test of time, have at some time in their history or evolution, caddie golf to thank in some way!

In my view, what the game stands to lose, by countinuing to be indifferent to properly "re-investing" in supporting caddie golf, are the
opportunities for those of modest means to earn while they learn about this awesome game AND the rich vein of differencemakers and champions that golf has mined for centuries from the caddie ranks.

No pullcart, GPS, skycaddy or buggie ever took a lesson, brought a friend into the game, joined a club, bought equipment, won a title, etc. You get the picture. Now, NONE of these things are the enemy of caddie golf...though many think they are. Rather, it is the greed of some in the industry, who see the game merely as a profit center AND the administrative bodies of the sport, that often derive revenue streams from sponsor arrangements with these entities...that have, in the main, turned their back on caddie golf.

Sadly, though many of these top American executives have caddie golf to thank for their lavish lifestyles and bloated salaries, because they don't see direct "benefits" to them or their organizations, choose to look the other way. Think about it, who brought the game to America? It was the Scottish, caddie-turned-professional, brought over in the hundreds during the late 1800s- early 1900 hundreds, that taught the game to us. The first true professionals were mainly caddies. Those at the top have forgotten their own sport's history!

Organizations such as: the Midwest and beyond-Evans Scholars, Golf Association of Philadelphia- J. Wood Platt Scholarship Trust (of which I am a grateful and proud alum) and Massachusetts- Francis Ouimet ScholarshipFund are the three most robust. There are others that operate well on a smaller level. All do a wonderful job....on a REGIONAL level. What I believe is needed, to get caddie golf stabilized, sustained and ultimately strengthened, is something more cohesive...integrating a better support structure for caddie golf, while having the partners retain their individual control. Is that so difficult? I think not. There just hasn't been a "coalition of the willing"...YET!

FirstTee has done a lot of good in many areas. It better have produced at least some significant results, as it has been showered with tens of millions of dollars, from a lot of corporate and others folks, both inside and outside of the game. There have been serious concerns about the sustained level of participation by the youngsters that enter the program. Data is thin and results mixed. Strong facility leadership, both adult and older youth, is key to consistent retention.

Interestingly, they have begun partnering First Tee programs with some private, Midwest caddie clubs on a small scale. Early reports are promising, though the adjustment for some of these inner-city youngsters, to the totally different world in which they are expected to perform well, is profound.

My thoughts always go to the fact that at some point, every kid that wants to stay in the game, or do much of anything in life for that matter...sooner, hopefully than later....NEEDS A JOB! I've never found a better job for a youngster that: let's them "learn while they earn," in a healthy setting, learning so many of the life lessons they will need to be successful...than caddie golf!

I remember the pride and satisfaction leaving the caddie yard after a long day, often going twice, with a bunch of money in my pocket...I felt like a KING. Yet I appreciated how hard I had worked for it... and gained other priceless lessons many will never experience if we allow selfish industry greed to triumph over that humblest titan of the game... caddie golf!

How then Mac, can the game, from the top down, not embrace caddie golf and nurture it whever possible?

I've given you plenty to chew on. IM me and we'll chat!
Cheers, Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Mac Plumart

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 04:55:41 PM »
Kris...

I will send you an IM shortly.

Great response.  I will make the time to get up to where ever you live and spend some time with you.  I love what you had to say...ever word of it. 

Again, I am glad you joined this site.

IM coming.

Mac
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2010, 05:31:25 PM »

Mac

I know at our last contact you were considering contacting ‘The Keepers of The Green’ American wing (http://www.keepersofthegreen.org/keepersinamerica.html), if you did, how did you get on.

Also with your knowledge do you  think there is any mileage in seeing if both charities can come together on the golfing front? If interested, I can speak to David Joy or get you to contact him direct.

Melvyn   

Mac Plumart

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Re: Welcome Kris Shreiner to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2010, 06:14:25 PM »
Hey Melvyn...

I've had brief communications with the Keepers of the Green.  I think there are huge things that can be done by bringing together like minded, charitably inclined people/organizations.  I'll keep you in the loop as my conversations with Kris continue.

Good to hear from you!

Mac
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.