What's really important

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

In reviewing the post you directed to comment on,
you use obviously exagerated examples.  
EXTREMELY MAN-MADE VERSUS EXTREMELY NATURAL,
as if these are the only two categories for bunker look/construction.  I would submit that there are an infinite variety between the two categories you have listed

Would Charlie Banks' bunkers be deemed extremely man-made or extremely natural ?

Let's take a course you are familiar with, NGLA, then take those bunkers from Innescrone and Applebrook and put then at NGLA, are you saying that the bunkers from
Innescrone/Applebrook will look better than the existing bunkers at NGLA ?

Will they play better ?

Would they encourage or diminish the ground game at NGLA ?

How would the Innescrone/Applebrook bunkers look at
Shadow Creek.

Tom, you can't universally endorse the look of a bunker.
One stlye does't fit all !

Mike Cirba,

Now, Don't go ruining my fun.  

Justin Zook,

I think your terminology or definition may be wrong.  
Cookie cutter for me implies mass production and a pre-set form, not the geometry, edge or border type of the bunker.

I would not call ANGC bunkers cookie cutter, but others might.

Ian Andrew,

I would think the strategy of the challenge and the challenge of the strategy would make you pick one course over another, not style, unless you're heading to a resort course.

[Justin_Zook]

I see your point Patrick!  I guess I've watched my Mom make too many cookies!  Well, if my terminology was off then, thank you for correcting me. I still feel the same way though about what really is important.  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Would I say NGLA's bunkers or Bank's bunkering looks natural or man-made? I would say that much of NGLA's bunkering and almost all Bank's bunkering looks man-made and "engineered" in some cases highly engineered. For the reasons on that you should review the "Raynor Paradox" topic of a month ago or so.

My belief is that the NGLA bunkering and much of the construction has a very man-made and "engineered" look to it and that includes most of what I've seen of Banks in person and in photos. I account that to the fact that it's old enough to have preceded the time in the evolution of architecture that the dedication to producing really natural looking features such as bunkering began and really took hold. NGLA's bunkering and architecture as well as Banks's architecture plays great though despite that look.

Applebrook's or Inniscrone's bunkering at Shadow Creek? I dont' think so although I really haven't seen Shadow Creek's bunker but it's probably very "studied" and clean and Hanse's bunkers would look out of place there. The thing that would look odder though would probably be Shadow Creek's bunkering at Inniscrone or Applebrook. I just think the bunkering of the latter two is much better because it looks much more natural than I bet SC's does.

Not to discriminate or sound biased against Fazio though as I think that his bunkering at Galloway National looks probably loads better than SC's because I think it looks much more natural than I assume SC's does.

Actually, I just thought of this but the course whose bunkering might be the best example to talk about as far as a natural look vs a man-made look, particularly in its detail very well may be Merion's. That would be because Merion is very old (1912) a time that even preceded the time that really natural looking bunkering was done in American architecture.

But then if you track the way Merion's bunkers evolved throughout the 1920s and 1930s you will see that they evolved and transitioned from relatively generic in appearance to a very natural look particularly in their detail compared to what they looked like in the teens.Why do you suppose that was?

[ian]

Patrick,
I don't know about you, but I select a course for the scenery as much as the strategy. The ocean makes a course such as Pebble Beach memorable, not the strategy. Great terrain is still a key element to truly great golf courses. The setting is 50% of the experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian Andrew,

We disagree on the relative merits of a golf course.

Take away the Pacific and Pebble Beach is still a great golf course, as is Cypress Point.

Or, are you saying that The Pacific makes Pacific Dunes ?
I feel It's the course itself, the field of play, not the surroundings.

TEPaul,

You state, "despite that look"  I think the bunkers at NGLA look terrific,  and shaggy edges would disrupt the play of the golf course.  The existing bunkers are ideal for NGLA.

What about Innescrone/Applebrook's bunkering being installed at NGLA ?  It would sure ruin the run-off feature where mishit balls are funneled into the adjacent bunkers wouldn't it ?

I'm not really sure what you are trying to pinpoint at Merion, the original bunker or the bunker that evolved through the aging process.  Then the question becomes, does the aging process ever start to diminish the look and playability of the bunkers, and can you stop the aging process at a desired time.

All too often people on this site deal with theory not reality, and wear and tear from golfers, rain, displacement of sand, winds, replacement of sand, equipment, other intrusions and factors need to be dealt with from a maintainance perspective.  

It may not be possible to retain a fixed status quo on any bunker, or freeze the look, so to speak.

As much as I might like the look of the bunkers at Innescrone/Applebrook, they are relatively new.
Let's see what father time has to say about them.

Father time has already conveyed his approval at NGLA

[Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)]

Patrick,

Oh, come on!  

Take away the Pacific Ocean and Pebble Beach is just another golf course.  Perhaps still a good one, but certainly nowhere near as good.

You mean you think the 18th at PB would be just as great if you replaced the ocean with O.B. and a parking lot?

I'm with Ian on this one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeremy,

Noone seems to mind that you have to hit over a railway shed and hotel at what is acclaimed by many as the greatest par 4 in golf, the 17th at TOC.

Why is is so difficult to imagine the absence of the Pacific and the retention of the value of the hole ?

Just go up the road a few miles and take a look at the same ocean while playing Spanish Bay and tell me its the view not the golf course that's the important criteria.

[Richard_Goodale]

Patrick

If you really think there is any comparison between the "ocean effect" at Pebble Beach and the one (or, more properly, lack thereof) at Spanish Bay, you were keeping your head down far too much when you played those two courses.........which is probably why you are such a good golfer!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yes the look of the bunkering at NGLA is fine; why do you think about about a "shaggy" look? I never said anything about having that look. NGLA's bunkering is the style of a very early "engineered" look in American architecture. Just because it's that doesn't mean I don't like them--I never said that, I like them very much. Applebrook's bunkers at NGLA? Why would you think I would recommend that?

I think you think if me or someone says the word "engineered" that's synoymous with bad or wrong. Nothing of the kind--but they are the look of early American bunkers a bit before American architects got into really perfecting the look of bunkering "mimicing" nature like the Monterey school, in my opinion!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Merion's bunkers and their evolution. My point in that they were quite "generic" looking for maybe 15 years of their existence until they started to "transition" into a much more "natural" look. I believe they evolved both architecturally and maintenance-wise. If you look at the progression of the photos of them you can see that very natural looking capes and bays and some beautiful "random edginess" grew into the grassy edges of them. This was clearly due to design and the evolving "style" of the evolution of architecture throughout the 1920s, in my opinon. Probably the efforts of Wilson just before he died and certainly Flynn and Valentine.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'stopping the aging process'. That isn't necessary, in my opinion. "Evolving" bunkers like Merion's is the best look of all if maintained properly!