[TEPaul]

Tom:

You can't imagine how much you said there and using extremely poignant analogies to other sports!

I've been trying to use some of those analogies myself for years now but they seem to fall on deaf ears!

Tennis is the one that's the most eerie--the closest analogy of all as to the similarities of the USGA with the old USLTA--an amateur organization that once had real power in tennis!

But still those you mention it to don't seem too concerned--almost as if they think--that could never happen to golf! That's what those that ran the USLTA thought too, because I remember them saying it--I'm that old!

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom I and Tom V (the City guy)

Don't go knocking tennis again!  It's a helluva a better game now than it was when Borg and McEnroe were playing, and miles better than the 60's when the clueless, chinless bluebloods tried hopelesly to hold onto the ficiton that it was an "amateur" game.

Did either of you watch Ivanesvic/Rafter at Wimbledon this year?

[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

Thanks. You've just named my next Fantasy Golf team.

The Chinless Bluebloods!

Not that I agree with you, about tennis -- but who really cares about tennis?

[Jeff_Lewis]

I am glad everybody realized I was kidding with the baseball story...the only difference between my fiction and the reality of golf equipment, is that I am sure kids actually can hit the ball better with aluminum than with wood...At most swing speeds, the average golfer is not hitting all of these technological marvels any further than he hit the ball 20 years ago.

It seems to me that the USGA/PGA Tour/R & A can evade litigation by mandating a competition ball, but allowing amateurs not playing in professional events to have "official handicaps" with non-competition equipment. I really don't care if the 12 handicapper in my group uses a pro-v or a tour balata or a pinnacle. Over time, the market, not the governing bodies would then have the freedom to decide what people will play with....and I have a funny feeling we know how that will turn out.

[TEPaul]

Jeff;

How will that turn out?

[Jeff_Lewis]

people would gravitate to what the pros use and discover that the competition ball, which flies 30 yards shorter than what people can buy in the pro shop, flies the same distance for them...

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

How will it turn out?

The guy in the backward baseball cap and the muscle shirt will be hitting the Titleist Pro V17 with a clubhead the size of your farm. He'll be hitting it high and long, right into the lake on the far side of the OB line -- just the way he does today. He'll slam his clubhead into the helpless earth, mutter an oath or two, and reload -- just the way he does today. He'll hit THAT one OB, too, then yank his tee from the ground, walk over to his cart, slam his club into his bag, and drive off, dropping a ball about 30 or 40 yards ahead of where his ball went OB -- just the way he does today. He'll pull out a nine-iron for his 160-yard approach, take a backswing as long as John Daly's, and hit it fat, leaving it about 25 yards short of the green -- just the way he does today. He'll chunk a chip, stridle angrily to the ball, and bat it somewhere onto the green -- just the way he does today. He'll putt up to about three feet, rush to hit the second, lip it out, and then say it was a gimme -- just the way he does today. Then he'll mark a double-bogey on his card -- just the way he does today.

You and I will be playing with our most recently purchased clubs -- and our Competition Balls. Because it will be purer -- and more fun -- that way.

[Richard_Goodale]

Bravo, Dan.  Agree completely with your scenario.

[THuckaby2]

Agreed. Well said, Dan.  The only thing I'd revise is the end.  For me, while I would always be dressed appropriately (backwards caps look ridiculous on someone my age, and I have no muscles to exhibit in a sleeveless shirt), I'd say for me:

If I'm playing with purists like Dan and Rich, I'd be using the competition ball and enjoying the purity.  If I'm with all my other friends who are all too much how Dan describes, I'd use whatever the hell they do, cheat like crazy playing their rules lest I lose all my money, and still have a hell of a good time.

Darn it's a great game.

TH

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thank you for stating that somewhat more eloquently than I did, Dan.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

I like your comments on the competition ball.  I can't imagine manufacturers would have any legal basis for challenging the USGA on the specifications for tournament play.

My instinct as a manager would be to first get a good legal opinion on simply rolling back the ODS.  If that didn't appear possible, then I'd go with the competition ball.

As for non competitive amateurs playing Pro V's, I could care less.  Most of those people still can't handle more than 6,500 yards anyway.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Jack Nicklaus is not often lauded on this website, but on this issue he has been at the forefront. I had never even imagined the concept of a competition ball until I heard Jack mention it a couple of years ago. I think the USGA would perform a public service if they publicized some of their data on ball performance...what speed are they testing balls at now? what are the differences between ten and twenty year old balls and today's balls at that speed? what is the difference between a professional's clubhead speed and a 5 or 15 handicapper? what is the difference between a professional's clubhead speed today vs. ten or twenty years ago? how about the 5 and 15 handicapper...has their clubhead speed changed with the new equipment? when was the last time the USGA updated their clubhead speed specification for testing purposes? there is a lot of information that they have that would certainly inform this debate.

[Dan Kelly]

Brought back to the top, for the benefit of Ron Whitten & Co.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps not germain to the main thread, but I note that Spalding is suing Wilson for false advertising claims regarding who is the longest ball.

It just shows that distance is king in ball and club manufacturing.  I think Cobra actually marketed itself as the accuracy club.  Where did they go?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
I think the litigation pertains to the true-rolling abilities of the Wilson ball over the Spalding. I don't believe it has anything to do with distance.

Cobra's woes began when Fortune Brands acquired them. FB also acquired Titleist. No one knew how to position each co. for maximum benefits. I think Cobra went from 700mil. to about 1/3 of that in no time flat. They have new product that may help them this season.  

[SL_Solow]

Jeff; I don't think length has anything to do with the suit against Wilson.  Wilson is marketing its new ball the "True" on claims that it is perfectly balanced and will roll straighter on putts.  It claims that other balls are unbalanced (much like manby of us who post regularly but I digress) by as many as up to 3 a sleeve.  They use the old trick of floating the balls in a salt water solution and spinning them to find if there is a heavy side.  Spalding is challenging both the validity of the test and the conclusions drawn.  To my knowledge no one has tried to test balls after they have been hit a few times.  
I think that would be an interesting test of roundness and balance

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