How does Swinley Forest's Par 3's Rank?

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Earlier this year a few of my good friends and I made a trip to Sunningdale, Walton Heath and Woking.  The highlight of the trip was Swinley Forest!  I wanted to say that with my limited travels to date....these five par 3's are the best I have seen in a routing as a grouping.

They are as follows:

#4 is 184 yds to the front with a 19 yds deep green sloping left to right and back to front.

#8 is 146yds to the front with a 26 yds deep green with a sharp drop off on the right side.  Still hasn't changed from Colts design...except a few small mounds on the rear of the green because of a #9 tee behind the green.

#10 is a 205 yds to the front of the green and the green is 22 yds deep....front bunker is a bit deceptive of where the green starts...this pic was taken from upper members tee....a new lower tee was built and hides the true design of this hole.

#13 is a 174 yds to front of the green and a 26 yds deep green....This one is the gem of the group.

#17 is a 170 yds to the front of the green with a 22 yds deep green....elevated and tilts back to front....front right bunker is a good dis from beginning of green....very deceptive.  Everything falls steep off the back and right side and back left side.  Vey nice hole.


Since I am just beginning the search for great golf holes and I am new at this....I would like to see where my favorite grouping of par 3's fits in everybody's list?


Ben Cowan-Dewar is nice enough to be posting my photos of the golf holes very soon with a reply.  They are in order detailed above.

Cheers,

RC_Stanfield

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Great looking holes indeed.  These are all RC_Stanfield's pictures, I just helped him get them up.

[ian]

WOW! They look great, this is obviously a course I have to see. Thanks Ben.

[Ran Morrissett]

I stand by what we say in its course profile, which is they are the finest set in the British Isles.

As for world wide, I suppose you have RM West, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Merion, and perhaps Camargo and Shinnecock Hills.

Swinley's may not be the best of that group but it's not outclassed either and does belong in such elite company.

I know some here prefer St. George's Hill to Swinley Forest as a place for a game but after looking at those FANTASTIC pics above, I beg to differ  

Cheers,

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran and Cliff,
Can you tell me how that green on the fourth hole plays?  Can they tuck the pin behind the bunker on the left?

Ian,
Glad I could help with these great pictures, but Cliff deserves the credit.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This doesn't apply to the quality of the holes specifically, but I was surprised to see the cart paths as visible and obtrusive as appear in the photos.  Too bad....

[Craig Disher]

RC,
What wonderful pictures! Were they taken over the winter? I visited the course mid-summer last and didn't get the overwhelming impression of green that your pictures show.

The "cart paths" as I recall were really just gravel base paths. Surely Swinley hasn't covered them with macadam. Is it just the light making them seem like they have paved surfaces?

The secretary said that we should take note of the par 3 holes - he was certainly understating their strength.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's Aerial of the Day #13 to see these holes from above:


And the thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1012831536

and the GCA write-up, with more pics:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/swinley000134.html

[vnurmi]

I think that the paths are there to protect the heather.
During summer the heather will dry and break if you walk on it.

[Chris_Hunt]

Ben-  The 4th green surface appears to have slid slightly down the side of the hill over the years, leading to the elimination of pinnable area as the green becomes a sloping bowl from back to front.  Planning is in the works to 'correct' this issue, although I do not know how much discretion will be used in the reconstruction and/or modification.

Apparently, last summer, a player landed a low running shot over the bunkers in the approach, then it proceeded to run up the right side of the green, catch the back of the bowl, sling around back down the left side of the green past the pin and roll down off the front of the green.  This occurance in the presence of a 'tinkering' greenkeeper has lead to the ideas of alteration.  There is also a good deal of water draining down across the green from the flanking hillside.

I think I prefer the par-3's at Rye, Cliff, but its really quite close.  At Swinley, the added bunkering left at the 13th and the chocolate drops left of the 17th, added as a safety feature for the new (and inappropriate) new tee at the 18th bug me a bit.  

Also, not visible on the aerial is the new fairway bunkering and plantings on the left side of 18, which are not good, and the fact that many of the trees behind the 8th green and left of the 9th hole have been cleared by the owners who lease Swinley the property.  The highway is now visible and audible, which must detract from the tranquility of the experience, no doubt.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Chris is right about the fourth hole and the issues concerning the design.  As for Rye I guess you and  I will have to go there...if you want to go again....when you speak of Rye do you mean the total grouping of the Par 3's are better than compared to these?  Oh well I guess I can ask you in a little bit.  Just woke up. Be there in a little bit.

Mr. Dewar,  The slope of the green on the fourth is dramatic and swings left to right.  A pin behind the large and deep bunker on the left is possible.  As Chris stated they have a problem in the summer of finding pinnable areas on this green due to runoof of balls.  Plus a tee for the next hole sits directly behind that left buker on line.

The hole after this, #5 is where Chris and I saw first hand where the UK Super's think they are designers.  A large pond was added on that hole with a wood retaining wall?

Was the retaining wall wood, Chris?

But there have been changes throughout the course but from remaining Colt Designs and what we(Hunt, Laseur, Pont, and I) discussed there really are not that many Colt Designs that routing has remained intact.

I mean to be fair Swinley Forest has been saved from major renovations....its just gone thru some weird strategic bunkering, a water feature ughh, and some choco drops here and there.

The cart paths do not exist...as carts do not exist.  The paths are merely crushed m10 like material...similar to what you find on an aspahlt base.  They really just like somebody stated protect the heather.  Plus if you were there in the summer you have to understand....there is no irrigation.  These photos were taken in Feb 2002.

The neatest thing about the course as with Sunnigdale.  No drainage in greens, tees, plus many of them have never been rebuilt since Colt's days.  As for Swinley they are thinking of rebuilding #4, like Chris Hunt said it has a minor flaw that can be slightly adjusted to hold balls in summer....but we have stated together...that its just tough..leave it alone.  We kinda feel it would be a shame to  let the super rent a bobcat and buy a pint of cheap Bell's Scotch

I guess Chris and I need to go to Rye.

If anymore of you have some routings that you feel are lesser known that have a grouping of the best par 3's please let us know....I am sure Hunt, LaSeur,Pont and I would be more than happy to take a look if they are in the UK or Ireland while we are here or in the US when we return.

Cheers

RC_Stanfield

[brad_miller]

thanks for the nice pics, might this be the worlds finest par 68-69 course? charming! looks like you could play these holes over and over again.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

From the blue the course is 6062yds. Par 69 SSS 70

The day we were there nobody was on the course but a few members(Rafferty), us, the super and his dogs.  The walk was so removing from all development except 1 and 18.  Excellant golf course and yes I think it would be a pleasure to have it as a home club to play everyday.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

RC
Thanks for the fabulous photos of what looks to be an awesome golf course.

RC/Chris
I'm a little confused. Are you saying the course remains pretty much the way Colt originally planned it or that it has changed a great deal over the years and there isn't much of Colt remaining?

[NAF]

I played Swinley, Sunningdale Old and New and Rye on a trip last June to London.  I found the par 3s at Swinley to be more fun and just a touch better than the holes at
Rye.  Rye's par 3s are harder in my opinion but I think the 17th is a bit of a dog compared to its colleagues.  That being said the 5th and 7th at Rye are world-class.  
In 2 go arounds the course, par felt like a birdie at Rye's one shotters.

My favorite par 3 at Swinley is probably the 13th which is as stated earlier the gem of the group.  The hole is framed perfectly with the rhododendrons on the left and
the heather in front of and behind the green.  The 2 bunkers fronting the hole also lend a sort of depth perception that led me to overclub.  I also find the 8th at Swinley
to be one of the best par 3s I have ever played with the steep drop off on the right side.  I watched helplessly as my fade bounced on the right side of the green and
down the embankment.  It took one of my best flops ever and a snaking 8 footer to save par.

So far Swinley has the 2nd best par 3s on the planet for a course I have seen.  I find them a notch below (due to #15 and #16) than Cypress but still superior to
Shinnecock.  I will be able to compare to Royal Mel later this year.  I found Swinley to be a magical place.  A trip there is like a walk in the kingdom because you invariably will find the course to yourself and it is a delightful trip thru the forest
indeed.

[Chris_Hunt]

Tom:

I think in general, Swinley is very well preserved.  However, there are certain 'projects' that have modified the concepts slightly.  One example is the 16th green, which was turned into a two tiered green when it was deemed to lack enough pinnable area.  It clearly sticks out, as do other subtleties.

I also concur that 17 at Rye is not quite the stunner, but it requires a low draw with a long iron, and adds that additional variety to the group of one- shotters.  I wish St. Andrews had more than two....

[Paul_Turner]

The only Colt courses that I can think of which have had the routing changed to a significant degree, are Rye and The Eden course.

I've played a lot of his courses and as far as I'm aware, these are very well preserved, certainly without anything as drastic as a routing change.  

Dunluce had a couple of hole changes, but Colt was involved with this.

You can see that pond on the inside of the dogleg 5th    I'm not sure about that addition at all!  RC did you take pic of it?  NAF was it there when you played?  Is it like the pond on the 5th Sunningdale Old?

Sunningdale New's par 3 set aren't far behind Swinley's.

[Paul_Turner]

RC

One more question, where have bunkers been added at Swinley since Colt built it?

PS

I actually like the more open backdrop on the 8th.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Paul,

The number 5 hole has a pond on the right side of the fwy.  It was added a few years back...not sure exactly when.  Suposedly because of drainage issues.  It was the Super's idea.

As for courses of Colt where the routing was changed...good question.  I think Seaside Course at Sea Island Georgia was rerouted by Fazio.  Many locals would say they miss the old Seaside...even though the beauty of Seaside is there they miss the old feel of the course and will usually opt for a game at Brunswick CC, an old Ross design.

Longniddry was a Colt design that has been changed a bit....not sure where, I have yet to play the course but a friend of mine reminded me about it.  I will have to visit it soon...just waiting till later this spring...since half is inland golf.

I do not know about the routing changes of Colt...I will have to research that one a bit more.

I have a pic of #5 pond...if you want I can email it and you can post it...I do not have a web site to post the pic.

[NAF]

Paul,

As RC stated the pond on the 5th was there.  Jim Reilly describes it more as a bog than anything else plus there is a drainage ditch as well..I couldnt remember at first because I pulled my drive way left and didnt look right that whole hole.