Should we call Crystal Downs a Maxwell?

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

You are trying to split hairs.  Max and Mac were a partnership no?  Mac has his name on the final plans yes?  I don't see any reason to exclude Mac especially with there is no evidence he ever visited Ann Arbor.  It was a very easy trip by train to/from Grand Rapids. 

Could you post the NY Times article?

Ciao

I think anyone familiar with Mackenzie's career would acknowledge their brief partnership was a little unusual. The majority of their projects, if not all of them, were projects secured by Maxwell, and in one or two cases before they became partners. Mackenzie was based in California, where he partnered with Hunter and used the American Construction Company. Maxwell had nothing to do with these courses. When Mac ventured outside California he worked with Wendell Miller. Maxwell had nothing to do with these courses. I believe all the Mackenzie & Maxwell courses were constructed by Woods, who built Maxwell's courses before and after the partnership. Some partnerships collaborate and some work independently, it is my impression Maxwell and Mackenzie worked independently, and I believe the nature of "their designs" is confirmation of that.

Tommy Mac

Thanks for posting the article.  I wouldn't say this piece totally eliminates Mac from the design of Michigan though. 

You say Mac an Max worked independently, what about their time together at Crystal Downs?  I am not suggesting these guys worked like that at Michigan, but I would be surprised if Dr Mac hadn't seen the property and likely made the changes for the second plan.  The boomerrang 6th green/hole is awfully similar to the 7th at CD.  I highly suspect that Yost wanted that type of green on the course and had one built even though I have no proof Yost visited Frankfort.  This is my hunch...

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
The story about Mackenzie & CD is an entertaining one. Do you think CD is closer in style to Mackenzie or Maxwell?

[Sean_A]

Sean
The story about Mackenzie & CD is an entertaining one. Do you think CD is closer in style to Mackenzie or Maxwell?

Tommy Mac

I have few memories of CD as its been more years than I can count since I saw the place.  Your question is interesting though.  Personally, I think Dr Mac was in mid-transition phase away from his Oz and sandy California period and moving toward Augusta when he did CD with Max.  So to answer your question I think CD is probably a perfect blend of the two archies and UofM is more Max than Mac.  Probably the same sort of split that Melrose was with Max as the lead designer.  Max and Mac strike me as a great partnership who could blend their styles quite comfortably. 

In any case, I believe CD should be called a Mac/Max co-design.  I also think UofM was a co-design, but with Max as very much the lead archie on the project.

Ciao 

[TEPaul]

"Alison was a completely different situation. Alison was looking for someone to build his golf courses, not someone to assist in the design. Over the years he was assisted on the construction end by George Penglase and LE Lavis. He called them associates, but to my knowledge neither man ever assisted in the design of any of his courses. Flynn was an experienced construction man at the time he was approached (in fact he'd built one or more courses for Alison), and therefore would have made a perfect construction associate."



Tom MacWood:

How do you know any of that? Do you have any actual and factual information that Alison never looked for anyone over here to partner with on design and only looked for others to do his construction? Did he say that? Did someone else say that about him or are you just speculating again?

When do you think Alison approached Flynn to just do construction for him and which designs of Alision's did Flynn construct other than apparently some of his green redesigns at Pine Valley? I wouldn't call that building one or more courses for Alison. It seems Pine Valley was intent on getting Alison to be on hand for the redesign of some of the holes at Pine Valley in the spring and summer of 1921 that he had proposed in that 1921 Master Plan but at that point Alison apparently was out in Detroit trying to set up an office or something out there. And so it seems that Pine Valley turned to Flynn to do the work there and perhaps with members Thomas and Toomey as well. I believe Flynn was also a member of Pine Valley at that time. Wilson also wrote that Jim Govan was certainly capable of helping to oversee construction and such, particularly since he had been doing just that with Crump since early 1914 at Pine Valley.

Alison also tried to solicit help from the Wilson brothers for a job or so around DC. The Wilsons asked Piper and Oakley about that but it seems Flynn got the job Alison had in mind. The Wilsons liked Alison very much because they felt he was a real gentleman. Around that time Alison made some proposal to Flynn to apparently go into business with him somehow. It may've had something to do with design or construction but more likely it was some proposal to hook up in the grass and agronomic development vein. The Wilsons did not think that was a good idea for Flynn citing the fact they did not think he needed Alison at that point because his future was bright apparently with Toomey.

And then a number of years later at Shinnecock, the club and particularly Lucien Tyng asked Alison to write a review of Flynn's plans for Shinnecock and Alison did that. It's a very interesting report and very complimentary and explanatory of the proposed plans, particularly the fascinating tree scheme Flynn proposed.

[Sean_Tully]

Thanks Sean. Is there any indication of the date for that routing?

Phil-

No date on the routing map.

Tully

[Neil_Crafter]

TE
The reason I think Tom McW said that about Alison is that Alison already had partners in the form of Harry Colt, and after 1923 Morrison. I imagine he didn't need another architect but rather a builder, so I can see Tom's thinking here.

[TEPaul]

"TE
The reason I think Tom McW said that about Alison is that Alison already had partners in the form of Harry Colt, and after 1923 Morrison. I imagine he didn't need another architect but rather a builder, so I can see Tom's thinking here."


Neil:

I very much appreciate you trying to answer a question or two put to MacWood about something he said above about Alison and Flynn since MacWood does not seeming willing or able to answer many questions put to him.

I certainly understand that Hugh Alison had Colt and Morrison as partners and in the 1920s but I don't believe Colt ever returned to America after 1914 and from his bio it seems Morrison never did anything in America. Do you have any idea if he even came over here? So it would seem Alison had no partner over here.

Alison did make a proposal to partner with Flynn is some fashion in the early 1920s because the Piper/Oakley and Wilson brothers correspondence mentions it. It could've been design, it could've been construction but most likely it may've had something to do with agronomy research and agronomic application with which Toomey and Flynn were heavily involved with the USGA/US Dept of Agriculture.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Prior to 1923 Alison had Mackenzie as a partner as well. I just think that while Mac partnered up in various locations with other architects, I imagine Alison did not feel the need for more partners that's all. He already had 2.

I don't believe Morrison ever worked in the US, he was more their Continental Europe man.

[TEPaul]

Neil:


In the early 1920s we have a bunch of correspondence that virtually proves Alison was actively soliciting business and apparently some sort of partnership with Flynn and the letters even mention the club and project as perhaps something of a separate issue to what Alison was apparently proposing otherwise. Furthermore, Alison could probably not have been visiting Piper and Oakley at the US Dept of Agriculture for any other reason than to hook up with them over agronomics (as that's about all they were involved in then).

Coincidentally, around the same time Colt wrote Hugh Wilson a letter asking if Wilson could arrange to have some of the USGA's Green Section's (in those days a committee) Bulletins send to him in England with their latest agronomic research. Colt mentioned in the letter it had been so long since they'd seen one another he hoped Wilson remembered him. At the end he asked that Hugh Wilson please remember Mrs Colt to Mrs Wilson that frankly means pretty much one thing to us----eg when Colt came to Philly in 1913 he brought his wife with him (the ship manifests seem to prove it) and they probably stayed with the Wilsons.

He also mentioned to Wilson that he had moved to another residence in England that he felt Wilson would really like leading us to the assumption that Wilson probably stayed with Colt at his former residence in England in 1912.

[Mike Cirba]

Just to touch more on this point, in the early to mid 1920's, Joe Bausch has also uncovered articles that make it clear that Wilson, Flynn, and Alison were seemingly working together on some things, which seems a natural outgrowth of their work finishing Pine Valley.

I'm thinking some of the recent confusion over who did what at the original Huntingdon Valley course at Noble that later became a public course called Baederwood may be related to this loose professional/amateur relationship.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I may've seen those articles you referred to of Joe Bausch's but I don't recall them at the moment. Most of this connection for me comes from those so-called "Agronomy Letters." I would like to see those, though, for corroboration or at least comparisons purposes. I tend to think what those people said to one another in personal letters is a bit more revealing of what they were really thinking and concerned about compared to newspaper articles. However, it is pretty ironic, that now and again, in those "Agronomy Letters" they actually discussed what they think about various newspaper articles as well as the writers of them.

This entire amateur/professional thing back then is a totally fascinating subject but one fairly hard to research for a variety of reasons. Or I shouldn't say hard to research necessarily but hard to analyze and interpret correctly. There were a ton of cross-current issues going on right around that time and before it and their concern definitely did not seem to be so much amateurism vs professionalism in architecture as much as commercialism in agronomy and such that was serving to rip off American golf to the tune of millions of dollars!

Their primary focus was on the so-called "seed merchants" who they felt were using what they called "sharp" practices. When they spoke about each other (the amateurs) they spoke about various people in how "pure" they were or weren't.

How men like Alison played out in this context at that time is really interesting as is how that truly mysterious one in all this, Howard Toomey, Flynn's partner, did or at least tried to in some ways.

[Tom MacWood]

Just to touch more on this point, in the early to mid 1920's, Joe Bausch has also uncovered articles that make it clear that Wilson, Flynn, and Alison were seemingly working together on some things, which seems a natural outgrowth of their work finishing Pine Valley.

I'm thinking some of the recent confusion over who did what at the original Huntingdon Valley course at Noble that later became a public course called Baederwood may be related to this loose professional/amateur relationship.

Mike
What articles are you referring to? I recall an article from 1925 that claimed Philadlephia CC was considering a plan submitted by Alison, but I don't recall anything about him collaborating with Flynn.

[TEPaul]

"February 10, 1922

Dear Hugh:
              We had a most interesting visit from Toomey and Flynn Wednesday. I think they are starting out with the right ideas in mind and I am sure they will succeed.
                                                                           Very Truly Yours,
                                                                                       Vice Chairman"
RAO








"February 10, 1922


Dear Hugh:

                 We had a very interesting meeting with Mr Toomey Wednesday and I think have matters all straightened out to his satisfaction. I would regard it as exceedingly foolish for Mr Toomey and Mr. Flynn to to into business with Allison on any such scheme as Allison has proposed to them, and I think our conference has convinced them of the utter inadvisability of going ahead on the basis of Allison's proposition.

                                                                              Very Truly Yours,
                                                                                         Chairman"

[JC Jones]

Guys,

Any chance we can start a new thread to discuss this.  I'd prefer this thread be left to the discussion of Maxwell, his work and Crystal Downs.

Thanks