The Greenbrier's Old White

[TEPaul]

Matt Langan:

You know, to get into some detail on that third hole (Biarritz), I really am interested to find out at some point how the tour players do on that green especially to pins on the back portion. I think I'm correct in saying that the hole measures 201 from the tips but that I believe is to the middle of the swale (the middle of the green which is about 70+ yards deep total) which is 20 plus paces from front to back. So to a pin at the back of the green that would be close to a 230 yard shot and given that back portion is only about 23 paces it would be very interesting to spend time on that hole in the Tour tournament to see how the pros play to that back greenspace. 23 paces is not very deep for them to be flying the ball to at around 215-220 yards so some of them may try to manufacture a much lower shot that lands in the swale and runs up and out and back to that back greenspace.

This is why I think this particular Biarritz has such interest----eg its three sections are all about the same distance depth which is bit unusual for a Biarritz where the front and back section are deeper distance-wise and the swale is shallower distance-wise than this one.

[Matt Langan]

If I do get the chance to get to the Tour event, you can count on me spending a good portion of my time split between three, fourteen, and eighteen. Are any of you planning on going to the event?

[Greg Tallman]

Great discussion guys.  Tom Paul will have to keep being the amateur architect and receive no monetary compensation for his input.  It was fun having him see the place for the first time although, as you all know, he gets hung up on things every now and then starts helping out alot!  Really, he made good observations about the Old White. 

The one thing that matters most is that we did reconstruct as many holes as practicable by using the 1929(?) aerial photo.  That was always our guiding light.  Whether the holes are the "strongest examples" is not important to me.  The important thing to me is that we replicated at least 13 "template" holes as they were when Raynor left there.  We recreated the holes as closely as possible and in fact modified where we thought it would give character.  All I know is I would stack this restoration up against most and the Greenbrier is extremely happy with the result.

The answer about the 16th green is pretty simple.  I put the green back where it was originally (on ther right) to reinstate a reasonable Cape hole that was lost.  The green across the creek was added some time after 1970 I believe as a "more interesting" two shotter (not in my opinion) by others.  The Howard Creek Lodge was built there when I removed the green.

Not sure the Tour will place the pins in all the right places, but I am interested to see how it goes. 

Lester 

Thanks Lester, Were the tee boxes relocated as well? For the life of me I do not recall water from the tee or on the right? Am I just getting old or were there other changes at this hole?

[TEPaul]

Lester George, you are a poker player supreme! You faked me out on that 14th hole recommendation of mine and you and your guys kept the con completely. I feel like a double dupe but I'm glad to hear what actually will, and probably already has happened on that hole. If so it is going to go right to the top of the charts as one of the coolest multi-option golf holes out there with a whole lot of nauncy deception every which way to Sunday.

Good on you Pal, and I hope you like the flower business!  

Guys, what Lester has done with Old White over the last 6-8 years, he is definitely going to have to have and need a whole lot more love on here!

[Lester George]

Tom Paul,

Gotcha!!!  Those trees will be down by next week.  We have also taken out the hybrid Maples from the left side of hole 7.  It is fun to mess with you I have to admit.

Greg,

The tees on 16 have been in that approximate location since the 1920's.  Blame your memory if you want but when I arrived in 2002, the 16th was pretty forgettable.  I am trying to post an aerial from the 1929 photo.

Lester

[Jim Franklin]

I, like I have said before, can't wait to get back there and play Old White. It will be the end of June and it cannot happen too soon. Lester really did a terrific job there. I have been playing Old White off and on for 20 years and it has NEVER been better. I really hope they use some fun pin placements too for the PGA.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom Paul,

Gotcha!!!  Those trees will be down by next week.  We have also taken out the hybrid Maples from the left side of hole 7.  It is fun to mess with you I have to admit.

Greg,

The tees on 16 have been in that approximate location since the 1920's.  Blame your memory if you want but when I arrived in 2002, the 16th was pretty forgettable.  I am trying to post an aerial from the 1929 photo.

Lester

WOW! I have absolutely zero recollection of that tee shot. I can see the approach to the old "left" green plain as day. I thought that a nice approach to be honest. A tight lkittle shot with plenty of truble lurking. DUring the 80's and 90's the right green was quite boring I thought. I am sure it has been spiced up a bit.

What was done to make 17 tougher, or is it played as a long par 4 now?

If the pricing structure is any indication of the owrk done to the course then your efforts would have to be considered a huge success. Back in my day the Greenbrier Course was far and away the most expensive at the resort. Now Old White is priced well above Greenbrier, 30% more to be precise.



Any talk of you touching up Justice's new acquisitions at Glade Springs? Always liked the Cobb course there.

[John Moore II]

Yet again, I bring up another old thread...


So, I was looking around today for public courses that are designed by the top level Golden Age designers. Certainly Old White fits the bill for CBM. What other public courses did CBM design that are still open and mostly original today?

[John Moore II]

So I was looking through some of the different rankings online, Golf Digest and Golfweek. This being a resort course, it would be considered open to the public. Being the only open to the public CBM course, wouldn't you think it would be ranked a little higher? The only place I saw this course ranked was in the Golfweek Best-in-State list, at #3. It was absent from the Golfweek Classic Top 100, the Golf Digest Top 100 and the GD Public Top 100. I have never seen the course, on the list to be sure, but am I wrong to be slightly dumbfounded at it being unranked?

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

John -- I also can't believe the course hasn't received more acclaim over the past 20 years.  It has a firm position in my top 5, and I haven't seen it since Lester renovated it.  Old White was the first course that caught my attention architectually... despite my previous experience with many D. Ross courses (#2 included).  The template holes just really wowed me.

[Tim Gavrich]

John -- I also can't believe the course hasn't received more acclaim over the past 20 years.  It has a firm position in my top 5, and I haven't seen it since Lester renovated it.  Old White was the first course that caught my attention architectually... despite my previous experience with many D. Ross courses (#2 included).  The template holes just really wowed me.

Jay--

If it was in your top five before it was renovated, it may well move directly to the top if and when you see it next.  It's fantastic.  Be sure to get an eyeful when the PGA Tour plays there at the end of the month.

[John Moore II]

John -- I also can't believe the course hasn't received more acclaim over the past 20 years.  It has a firm position in my top 5, and I haven't seen it since Lester renovated it.  Old White was the first course that caught my attention architectually... despite my previous experience with many D. Ross courses (#2 included).  The template holes just really wowed me.

I have to wonder if the course markets this course correctly. Because Golf Digest has a Greenbrier course, the private Snead Course, as the second best in WV, behind Pete Dye GC. And the Palmer Course at Stonewall is #4, with the Old White nowhere in site. I've never played either course, but I find it hard, given what I have seen from other courses (seen through pictures, never played) that Mr. Palmer can design anything that is better than what CBM did.

Can anyone with access to a CG post what number Mr. Doak gave the Old White? That might give us some indication as to what the knowledgeable/industry opinion of the course is/was.

[Jim Franklin]

My trip to The Greenbrier was fantastic. I was there for the opening of their new casino which is terrific. Old White is a blast to play and I enjoyed it immensely. I love the Dragon's Teeth on #17. They are the newest change from the last time I was there. As a GD panelist, I am surprised it is not top 5 in WV. I like it better than The Snead although The Snead probably scores a little better in the GD system. I could play Old White everyday and not get tired of it.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

John -- I also can't believe the course hasn't received more acclaim over the past 20 years.  It has a firm position in my top 5, and I haven't seen it since Lester renovated it.  Old White was the first course that caught my attention architectually... despite my previous experience with many D. Ross courses (#2 included).  The template holes just really wowed me.

I have to wonder if the course markets this course correctly. Because Golf Digest has a Greenbrier course, the private Snead Course, as the second best in WV, behind Pete Dye GC. And the Palmer Course at Stonewall is #4, with the Old White nowhere in site. I've never played either course, but I find it hard, given what I have seen from other courses (seen through pictures, never played) that Mr. Palmer can design anything that is better than what CBM did.

Can anyone with access to a CG post what number Mr. Doak gave the Old White? That might give us some indication as to what the knowledgeable/industry opinion of the course is/was.

Precisely.  Its consistently been out of the national rankings picture... and hardly even mentioned in "state" lists of WV (not exactly golf course mecca).  I never understood how it could even be ranked behind its sister course -- the Nicklaus (Ryder Cup) Greenbrier course.  The Nicklaus is a good enough course, but it has 1/3rd of the character and charm of the Old White in my opinion.  Perhaps the resort has kept it as its own little secret... at the request of Old Slammin Sam.  In several trips up there, i never saw him play anything but the Old White. 

I know the course doesn't necessarily fit neatly into some of the "rankings" boxes.  I'm not sure it belongs in the Top 100 Classic given all the golden age gems this country has to offer, but it isn't far off the list.  There is nothing spectacular or pretentious about it.  It simply fits neatly in the valley like a glove and offers a fun, relaxing golf experience for all skill levels.  I don't know if there is a better compliment for a course -- resort or not.  Can't wait to get back at some point.  And I'm anxious to see the course get its due when the pros return in a month's time.

[Greg Tallman]

Rumblings of major changes to come at The Greenbrier and not sure I like or agree with what I am hearing.

[Greg Tallman]

John -- I also can't believe the course hasn't received more acclaim over the past 20 years.  It has a firm position in my top 5, and I haven't seen it since Lester renovated it.  Old White was the first course that caught my attention architectually... despite my previous experience with many D. Ross courses (#2 included).  The template holes just really wowed me.

I have to wonder if the course markets this course correctly. Because Golf Digest has a Greenbrier course, the private Snead Course, as the second best in WV, behind Pete Dye GC. And the Palmer Course at Stonewall is #4, with the Old White nowhere in site. I've never played either course, but I find it hard, given what I have seen from other courses (seen through pictures, never played) that Mr. Palmer can design anything that is better than what CBM did.

Can anyone with access to a CG post what number Mr. Doak gave the Old White? That might give us some indication as to what the knowledgeable/industry opinion of the course is/was.

John, The resort has drastically changed it's positioning of each course. 20 years ago The Greenbrier Course(Nicklaus/Ryder Cup) was the premium course and nearly double the price of The Old White. Now this was likely due to the Ryder Cup factor and llittle else. Today The Old White is the most expensive of the resort's triumverate of courses an by a good margin. Now thyis again is likely due to the event factor with the Tour coming soon but it does speak to how the resort is marketing it's amenities and specifically golf courses.

[John Moore II]

Rumblings of major changes to come at The Greenbrier and not sure I like or agree with what I am hearing.

Are you at liberty to share?

[Greg Tallman]

Rumblings of major changes to come at The Greenbrier and not sure I like or agree with what I am hearing.

Are you at liberty to share?

John, I wish could as it is rather curious given some of the recent changes in terms of golf. That said I would put myself in an awkward position with more than one organization were I to "spill the beans". I would be shocked if other posters had not at least gotten wind of what I am dancing around.

Let's just say that the proposed changes would keep some shapers and the like employed for a while and on multiple courses. 

[Tim Gavrich]

Rumblings of major changes to come at The Greenbrier and not sure I like or agree with what I am hearing.

Are you at liberty to share?

John, I wish could as it is rather curious given some of the recent changes in terms of golf. That said I would put myself in an awkward position with more than one organization were I to "spill the beans". I would be shocked if other posters had not at least gotten wind of what I am dancing around.

Let's just say that the proposed changes would keep some shapers and the like employed for a while and on multiple courses. 

If the resort's new leadership is going to renovate the Greenbrier and Meadow courses, I think that would be awesome.  Both courses are certainly good and enjoyable, but they are clear second and third fiddles to the Old White now.

[Greg Tallman]

Rumblings of major changes to come at The Greenbrier and not sure I like or agree with what I am hearing.

Are you at liberty to share?

John, I wish could as it is rather curious given some of the recent changes in terms of golf. That said I would put myself in an awkward position with more than one organization were I to "spill the beans". I would be shocked if other posters had not at least gotten wind of what I am dancing around.

Let's just say that the proposed changes would keep some shapers and the like employed for a while and on multiple courses. 

If the resort's new leadership is going to renovate the Greenbrier and Meadow courses, I think that would be awesome.  Both courses are certainly good and enjoyable, but they are clear second and third fiddles to the Old White now.

THink bigger.