Pete Dye Club - Long Description

[Mac Plumart]

Sometimes the stuff on this site blows me away.  I am unsure what the debate/argument is really about this time, so I'll try to not weigh in on it...but I do LOVE Pete Dye golf courses...and quite frankly I stink at golf.  I am a very eratic 12 handicap (and not a good speller).  I can shoot mid to low 80's and I can pop high 90's if something goes squirrly.

Nevertheless, I love Mr. Dye's courses and I find them very playable if the correct tees are played and the appropriate strategy is employed.  

For instance, here is the tee shot on 13 at The Ocean Course.  





The good golfer can challenge that water and play into the skinny part of that fairway and challenge the hole for birdie.  I chose to play to the fatter part of the fairway with a lesser carry of the water.  Of course, this left me with a longer approach with water on the right and bunkers on the left.  But I was afraid of fading my tee shot and with the 30 mph winds blowing left to right, I thought a fade would turn into a slice and that slice would turn into a water ball.

Frankly, he has these risk/reward options over and over on his courses and I think they are great.  For instance, here is 2 at PDGC.  Similar concept as 13 at Kiawah, just reversed.



Greens are a mix of wild and mundane.  Here is the green at the end of the short par 4 17th at PDGC.  Crazy green, but short hole.




And here is a green at The GOlf Club which is at the end of the brutally brilliant risk/reward par 4 13th.  Much more subtle than the green at the end of the short par 4 17th at PDGC.



Dare I say he is a "fair" architect?


I could go on and on about Pete Dye courses and I will if anyone wants to...but I will say this, I completely respect if people say they don't like his courses.  To each their own in golf.  Links for some, mountain or desert for others.  Walking for some, riding for others.  What's the big deal?

For instance, a friend of mine says he hates Pete Dye's use of wooden planks.  I can't see anything wrong with it...can you?



Anyway, Matt W. I think you asked for a list/ranking of Dye courses played on this thread or some other in order to give you context relative to comments made.  Here is/are mine in order of preference...

The Golf Club
Kiawah Ocean
Harbour Town
PDGC of WV
Paiute Wolf
TPC Sawgrass

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You say you "disagree" but where's the beef in your argument? Is it just personal tastes or what? I would hope you can flush out things a bit more than just a simple declaration that has no meaning beyond your individual understanding.

I would need to know what specific Dye courses you have played. For any conclusions to be drawn that would help matters immensely. Sample size does play a role in things.

George, you also insert a straw man argument with the "what's the yardage" bitch. That's not the case and the people who understand Dye or have a hunkering for his pure designs can enjoy and play them when the appropriate tees are used. You say it's "prevalent" -- I don't know where you get that remark from or what it's basis in reality is.

In regards to diagonal tee shots -- they are merely cape-like holes. I guess you can say seen one seen them all with just about any hole if one wants to. The 2nd at PDGC is very well done -- it provides plenty of bailout areas and the angle is better done than the over-the-top harshness Pete did withthe 18th at TPC / Sawgrass in my mind.

George, in regards to your final statement -- about "dumb challenges" -- I think there's a bit of inferiority complex at issues here with your comments I enjoy a range of courses -- whether they be short or long or whether they feature elements not seen as often as others. No doubt golf skill plays a role but if someone needs the width of Kanas to enjoy a course then I stand by my previous comment on an earlier post. PDGC gives ample room to players -- it's far from the overly narrow classic courses that some on this ste gush about frequently -- and I'm not speaking about Oakmont here.


Dan:

I can understand 1000% your feelings. I cannot fathom or defend such actions in overwatering. In your time there such an action can seriously undermine the architecture there. I agree that brown -- or something close to it -- is the way to go. When I played PDGC the place was optimum so it just turned on when someone was there and what was being done at that time.

Mac:

Well said -- Pete Dye brings to life a very interesting and fun dimension to design -- of course, some people may not like it -- George included. The issue is the sample size of courses played and when someone saw the work in question. The earlier work by Pete Dye is quite good -- the more recent efforts less so -- in some cases -- much less so. PDGC is well done -- it had plenty of time to get it right and the site serves the design so well.

One final thing -- your samples of Dye-played courses is quite good.

[Ryan Farrow]

Pete is a pretty polarizing architect, thats why he is held to such a high esteem in the golf world. I can see why people don't like his courses, but you cannot deny that the architecture is world class on a lot of his work.

Coming from George I am surprised he is so down on Pete because I know he knows its good golf, its just not for him. To each his own.... I guess. But I would still not say Oakmont 10-0. And surprised he really believes this or said this. I would think he would at least go 9-1 just for the sake of variety. Its not like the quality is that much lower.... plus you get things like more strategy and risk-reward from PDGC.

George, I have to call bullshit on you with the 10-0 thing. No matter how anti-pete you are.


Dan, I agree with you about the over watering thing. It has not rained in the area for quite a while, yet the course was way, way to wet. It seemed every course I went to in western PA was over watered........ except OAKMONT! You would think other clubs would learn from the best, and try and emulate a proper maintenance meld.

Supers need to wake up already. Over watering is not good for anyone. Not for the turf health, playability, or the community. I am really, really disappointed and it looks like nothing is going to change until the government starts putting water restrictions on golf courses.  

[George Pazin]

Sorry, Matt, I'm done with you. I have stated in this very thread the PD courses I've played and seen. I gave you my honest opinion about the nature of the challenges they offer. You respond to my comments by calling them bitches and repeatedly insult me with talk about inferiority complexes and the like, and I'm not going to waste any more time trying to have a rational discussion with you.

Have a nice day.

Ryan, you're free to call bullshit if you'd like, I don't have a problem with that. If I hadn't seen PDGC, I'd choose to play it once or twice, but having seen it, it's 10-0 for me. That's not saying a whole lot meaningful (kind of my point about rankings), however, as everyone knows my opinion of Oakmont. As I said before, I threw that in there to try to put a smile on Matt's face, but he chose to read it a completely different way. If someone else who hadn't played either was asking me, I certainly wouldn't tell them not to play PDGC - several of my best friends have and I've enjoyed the discussions with them. I should add, lastly, that I'm not a person who needs variety in my golf.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan, you're free to call bullshit if you'd like, I don't have a problem with that. If I hadn't seen PDGC, I'd choose to play it once or twice, but having seen it, it's 10-0 for me. That's not saying a whole lot meaningful (kind of my point about rankings), however, as everyone knows my opinion of Oakmont. As I said before, I threw that in there to try to put a smile on Matt's face, but he chose to read it a completely different way. If someone else who hadn't played either was asking me, I certainly wouldn't tell them not to play PDGC - several of my best friends have and I've enjoyed the discussions with them. I should add, lastly, that I'm not a person who needs variety in my golf.

Hahah.. Fair enough.