[TEPaul]

TommyN those are terrific photos. I love both the shots of #13 from on high. Photography does pan things out though doesn't it? #16 fairway looks much flatter than it really is.

Geoff, explain to Golfclubatlas what you feel the strategic meaning of #13 green and green-end is depending on where the pin is placed.

#13 is so low-keyed and minimalistic looking in those photos with the backdrop behind it and the mountains. To me that's site natural! I love the idea that the hole's first 2/3 seems to be an undictated player's choice but when he gets in the vicinity of the green he'd better be ready for the particular pin and he'd better be in the proper postion to come at the green and pin properly.

I just love the idea of a good player hitting two good but sort of thoughtless shots as to his position in front of that green and then saying--"Whoops, two good shots later and look what I forgot to do?"

[Geoff Shackelford]

Tom,
The green concept is pretty simple really. If the hole is cut on the lower left, you may want to lay up down the left side, if the pin is upper center or right, coming in from the right is definitely an easier shot (though some people might like the center line for the back hole locations because the lie is flat). So basically, the center is rarely the best place to be on the lay-up, which may upset a few players. In spots, the fairway is over 100 yards wide at the layup area, so there is room to pick your side and if you miss place your lay-up shot, well, Gil created some nifty back boards and bumps so that someone with local knowledge could still pull off a recovery shot with some imagination and precision. But this green looks small as DMoriarty pointed out, even though its 6,500 sq. feet. It must be the scale of the hole and the backdrop.

I think it was about a year ago this week or next that you and Jim and I were walking this after the grass had been cut down!
Geoff

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Just a note.

I had to do some small and minor image repair on this computer and the Rustic Canyon images are a lot more crisp looking instead of being out of focus.

Sorry for the trouble!

[Mike Cirba]

I'm still looking for containment mounds, tree plantings, framing, obvious "strategy" and aiming bunkers.  

Aren't you guys up on what the greatest architects of our time are doing?  

What's with all this low-key, low-profile stuff?

Hopefully, you guys will at least follow the lead of the best restoration artists and clean up those nasty looking bunkers!  How can you call it a true, USGA approved Championship course otherwise??

Seriously...Awesome work, fellas.  It's so heartening to see much of what we talk about on here actually "found" and utilized on the ground.    

[TEPaul]

Geoff:

It was just a year ago we were standing out there near #13 green, after the mowing, discussing all those green and green-end strategic concepts and I thought and think they're fantastic strategic concepts!

My only hope was and is that the concepts are indeed meaningful in actual play at the green and green-end,  although anything but obvious before the player arrives at that point! Perhaps, I should not just say "meaningful" but maybe even "intensely" so!

As you know I love a big broad apparently "undictating" hole (strategically) like that one that can catch even a good player unaware sometimes. The idea of that center green bunker and the shape and contour of that green SUBTLY "talking back down the hole" the most important  strategic implications of the hole to the golfer who is observant is a very exciting one to me. Particularly if the hole (and architects) have done very little in an apparent strategic way in leading the player to that point (green-end and green)!

Frankly, as you know, I think the previous hole (#12) may just be an even more interesting "concept" of making the player figure things out for himself! But to do so #12's green and green-end must have real meaning (and maybe intensely so) although hopefully it's anything but obvious at first.

My hope is that on either hole a thoughtful golfer (in his first few times there) may say to himself, particularly with the enormously wide undictating fairway on #12 something like; "Is this course trying to fake me out somehow by making this look so accomodating?", and in fact that is just what's happening! But both greens and green-ends have to have real meaning to "talk back down the hole" to the golfer for where he does decide to go off the tee (and all regulated by the particular pin position)!

I realize that most assume that most golfers really don't understand what strategy is and don't concern themselves with it. An architect can try to "educate" them to the concept of strategy by leading them along on an obvious or semi-obvious progressive "shot by shot" road of clear risk/reward meaning almost every step of the way!

But the far better design to me is one where there are areas of no real strategic meaning at all--sort of what appears to be clearly and totally accomodating areas of play (like #12 fairway) where a golfer might hit a great drive without a penal feature within 40yds of him and then realize; "Oh My God, look what the position of this great shot has just done to me" (approaching #12 pin position from the wrong place!!).

The idea of giving a player little to deal with (strategically) on the shot at hand and forcing him to concentrate and look ahead for some kind of meaning is the best of all strategic worlds and designs to me. But the more that EVENTUAL area of strategic concept has meaning the better the whole thing is!

To me this is the best way possible to "educate" any golfer to what strategy really is or should be simply because you're  making him make his own strategy, (no dictation in certain areas). And to make his own in the case of Rustic Canyon he must look past or ahead of the areas where there seems to be none, to find why he needs to do certain things where there appears no apparent reason to do anything in particular on the shot at hand!

I look at this kind of thing as having lots of the application that Behr talks about that a gofler will ultimately have more meaningful fun if he thinks he's up against nature instead of the obvious hand of some architect! That he might be less likely to resist or complain in that case.

It's sort of like the clever psychoanalyst to me! He can probably sit there in the first or second session and just tell you everything that's wrong with you. But he doesn't do that because the likelihood of you becoming defensive and resisting him (and his advice) is high. The best technique is for him to lead you along to figure it out for yourself, or think that you have! And the best of them will do it in such a way that you're never aware of what they've done or how they've done it!

From what I saw there and from your later photos of what was done, that's what Rustic Canyon can and will do! But those areas following the areas of apparent total accomodation have to have real meaning and maybe even intensely so, and I'm convinced they do!

I hope the course will be like the really good psychoanalyst who doesn't appear to lead you by the hand! Strategy in some of it's best forms is a wonderful thing to golf but it has to be best of all when the golfer feels it really is his own and not just a situation of following the architect's "yellow brick road".

[GeoffreyC]

Awesome looking features on your course Geoff, Gill and Jim. I feel like we were transported back in time looking at them.  Maybe we really have entered a new golden age.  There are several really classic modern courses that have been built in the last few years.

I can't wait to tee it up! Hopefully soon.

[Geoff Shackelford]

MikeC and GeoffC,
Thanks for the kind words, hope you'll be able to come out and see the course soon.

Tom Paul,
I appreciate what your saying, but I really think the only chance you have to create some of the strategy you are talking about, comes with width. And even though most golfers won't get it, but maybe over the course of many rounds they'll at least accept some of the ideas. I can't tell you how many weird looks we've already gotten when people look at 12 in particular. They just can't fathom why the fairway is so wide, same with parts of 13 and other holes. Hard to imagine the game could get to the point where width not only seems weird to people, but to many, the sign of bad design, no matter what they acknowledge is going on at the green!
Geoff

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Just how wide is the fairway at Rustic Canyon's 12th?

Just to let you know, we are planning on a holding a concert get-together on the 12th fairway this summer called "Ruststock." Some great names are going to be on the bill too!

Purple haze is in my brain,
maybe things don't seem the same,
Got know reason and I don't know why,
excuse me while I kiss the sky!
Da Da Da
Da Da-Dah
Da Da-Dah!

Shivas, I'll let Geoff give his reason, but I do have to say, Why not wide fairways for which to have all sorts of options on?

My predicition is that if you are not on the green after your approach, you are going to be in for a real treat. #12 is one of those holes where the green just sort of protrudes out of the fairway before it hits the fence line.

[TEPaul]

Geoff:

Sorry to hear you're not optimistic about Rustic Canyon's clientle understanding the unencumbered width of some of the fairways.

I guess I'm more optimistic than you but it's also why I keep saying that the greens (and green-ends) need that extra kick (that I believe they have) to send real meaning out into the unencumbered (unfeatured) fairways loud and clear to even the most obtuse golfer.

Call me callous but if some unobservant golfer plays #12 a dozen times and still sees no reason why he very much needs to be in certain parts of that enormous unencumbered (unfeatured) fairway to approach various pin positions successully from the correct angles and distances then I really couldn't care less what he thinks of width, strategy or Rustic Canyon. I know it's hard for you but I would hope you would feel the same. I mean if you take someone to see a great piece of art a dozen times and he still doesn't see any difference between it and graffitti, who really cares?

Hanse and Co. and you have done a great job with Rustic and the architecture. It's good although very different (I think good and very different is even better frankly). You did your best and have nothing to worry about. If the clientle doesn't understand the course then that's their problem. There's no doubt in my mind that you all understand architecture well enough to have given them a piece of highly directional, "play from here to there", "let the architect show you every shot to hit" hand-holding mundane crap had you wanted to, but you didn't do that.

In a sense I look at y'all as a bit like the age old politician's quandry; "Does he lead his constituency or follow them?"

Y'all have tried to lead in giving them something out of the ordinary that's valid in how golf can be played. Now it's up to them to figure it out. I think they will, just because that #12 green et al has some real meaning. If one of them hits a great drive on #12 to the wrong spot and can't figure out why a good approach isn't working time after time that's his problem! You've done your job--don't worry about it.

[Geoff Shackelford]

Tom,
Believe me, I'm not worried about it, the width is there and people will embrace it for other reasons besides strategy (not too many playable courses built in this area recently). And hopefully as you point out, the green end will make some appreciate their options, and others appreciate that at least part of the hole seemed interesting to them, and perhaps look back afterwords and realize why the width was there.

shivas,
Width is one way to deal with the length issue if you have interesting greens that ask for players to scout out a hole location and think about placement. Narrowing the gap only is a band aid, eventually there will be no fairways to combat rough, is that progress? I guess it is to some who place an emphasis on Titleist's bottom line over sport.

The element of thought that is missing from so many courses where the setup is so limited. The more you get players thinking and asking them to place shots on a wide canvas, the more shotmaking is required if you have greens that ask for certain angles of attack, and firm conditions to make sure the angles work. Many of those tee shots might be placed in, over, around hazards, as opposed to the robotic exercise of who can hit it the longest and straightest the most. But I see golf headed in the long/straight direction more and more. We're a country where the majority likes sports simplified, not made more thoughtful or strategic, so maybe someone will have a tour event soon where it's just a series of long drive contests down 5 yard wide corridors with judges awarding points for presentation, ball heighth and dress choices!
Geoff

[RJ_Daley]

While this suggestion is contrary to the enjoyment derived by the more skilled and tuned-in players of discovering a course over repeated play in terms of strategy and where to try and place your ball under varying conditions; I wonder why not prompt the average Joe golfer who has not reached that stage of strategizing their shots with no help from the peanut gallery.  What I mean is why not go ahead and give them some sort of clue or advance notice on the score card with a statement of the design intent.  It could read something like this:

"Rustic Canyon is a golf course that has been designed with wide fairways purposely inorder to offer players of all abilities real strategic choices as to where to play shots and from a variety of optional angles.  While our wide fairways may be forgiving in terms of fewer lost balls and faster play, we hope that you will discover the subtle challenge and strategy that can make your round one of expanding your enjoyment and understanding of the game of golf."  (Maybe Dan the editor can clean that up)  

But the idea is to prompt new players to a couple of things.  Enjoy the width, realise its purpose, be aware of speed of play relative to lost balls, and view the course as unique and challenging in ways they may not have considered before.  Thus setting the course apart not only in price, but in playing quality from what folks had gotten used to.  All this to develop a loyalty to your offering and distinguish it for those that aren't up to the level of golf that these things are obvious, yet.

[THuckaby2]

That is genius, RJD.  My fear is that 99% of the clientele at Rustic - given it will be "affordable" - will be more of the "average joe" type of golfer who would indeed never get this subtlety unless prompted.  I love your suggestion.  I'd put it right on the freakin' scorecard.  They ought not to be condescending, and your words aren't.

Beautiful.  Love it.  

TH

[JakaB]

Please don't take a minimalist course and add maximum verbage....I can not get to such a level of architectural purity that over signage, intelectual feel good dribble and being treated like someone only exists to teach me something or to make sure I'm not stealing something can't ruin a perfectly good day.   Thank God for automated gasoline payment systems on the pumps so I no longer have to listen to gas jockeys opine on the merits of unprotected prison sex....I would like to see an automated first tee...no signs, no lectures just swipe and go.

[THuckaby2]

JakaB - you're not the audience I'd worry about.  You could get it most definitely without this help.

For the 99% who WON'T, this little amount of verbiage on the scorecard would help more than hurt most definitely.

And whilst I think I would "get it" also (with the help of Tom Paul's guidance   ), it wouldn't bother me at all to see this on the scorecard either.  Might get me to try to find what they're talking about.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Shivas,
I decided last night to let Geoff respond on this topic, thus "butting-out" of that part of the discussion. Now that he has posted a modern perspective, I would like to give my take.

One of the great aspects of width is just not the fact that the golfer can step up to the tee and think, "Rip-it," but in fact this style or enhancement allows one to play to his or hers strengths, in relation to the strategy or their own strategy per say.

For years I had mapped out in my head how I was going to play the 14th at the Old Course. I knew I was going to play there someday, and the names of all of the areas entertained me greatly (Elysian Fields, Hell, Pulpit, Beardies, Sawtooth, Break In The Dike, etc.) While some will say that the Old Course is too narrow, few realize that it is just one huge fairway throughout the course. The Tom Paul Maintenance Meld in its finest form! #14 is in fact a very wide golf hole and a delightful one at that because anyone can play it and still be challenged by it.

Rustic Canyon will have many areas that will fit this same bill. Many different areas that will require not only great thought from the tee, but pre-thought before he or she even gets to it! Not to mention the TE Meld that encompasses the 2nd, 3rd & 5th holes.

Geoff's onetime concerns of people not getting the architecture will never come to pass simply by convinence of the affordability of return visits, plus the challenge to take on what he or she may have failed in past excursions. This is what the Game is all about--Personal Challenge! And yes, I also feel this is the best way to compete in Match Play also! Play the course, and not your competitor, and let the final result be the deciding factor. Rustic Canyon will be an excellent match play course.

JakaB, I will be the first to accept such a system on the first tee. Just last night I had to listen to my local AM/PM Counterman tell me of stories of days gone by in Pakistan, and how they would all sit by the barnfire at night, dreaming of how good it would be in America, owning a 7-11 and having an American fox with big breasts.

[Bill_McBride]

Could Geoff or Gil or Tommy for that matter, please explain # 14 to me?  I see the photo, not sure what the hole is or why it has that cart path winding in front of the tee if that's the tee.  I'm confused.  Please explain.
Otherwise this looks like a great golf course.  I predict that with those green fees, it will be impossible to get a tee time. Huckaby better hurry!  Congratulations to Gil and Geoff on what looks like an incredible layout.  Those natural grasses are just beautiful.  Are they 30 yards from center line?  Could be some ball hawking if any closer.

[THuckaby2]

Bill:  you know California public golf all too well.  The one thing in my "advantage" re tee time availability is indeed that Rustic is in a fairly remote area.  That being said, the price is gonna draw in the masses, that's for sure!  And then they damn well will all come back once they see how great it is.

What's gonna be interesting to me is to see what effect the opening of Rustic has on the great, but overpriced, nearby Lost Canyons.... not to mention the "not so great" (see how nice I am?) but equally overpriced nearby Tierra Rejada....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill, #14 was probably one of the more controversial holes during construction, therfore, probably going to be one of the better holes as the course matures.

I used the term "Extreme Cape" and I can't think of a better term. Imagine instead of being on a slight angle looking at the hole from the tee like most Cape-holes. However, from the tee, which is way left of the picture and requires the player to carry the dry arroyo/hazard. You are actually staring at the entire left side of the hole when on the tee.

Mid-hole there is a set of walnut trees that look to be very carryable, but the controversial surprize here is that the other side of those trees is a sandy-scrubby bunker. Also the trees are much further then they look. Several times during the construction Jim Wagner and myself launched shots over the ravine. Jim made several great shots, while I couldn't help but pulling them with my flat swing short of the trees. It was so tempting everytime to go for those trees!

This feature in golf architecture principles was much discussed during the on-site design process, and ultimately,  the allure of trying to carry the trees will be exactly what makes a person want to come back and try it again--hopefully safer, but much further from the green.

I'll try to draw a little map later on and post it as I'm not on my computer at this time where I can scan it and upload it.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The back right bunker of the 15th


A shot of the fairway bunker at the 16th appropriately called, "Kittleman" from which the style was inspired.

[Dan Kelly]

Dick Daley explicitly invited me to edit his scorecard statement -- which I think is a great idea. I'll give it a go:

Dick's: "Rustic Canyon is a golf course that has been designed with wide fairways purposely inorder to offer players of all abilities real strategic choices as to where to play shots and from a variety of optional angles.  While our wide fairways may be forgiving in terms of fewer lost balls and faster play, we hope that you will discover the subtle challenge and strategy that can make your round one of expanding your enjoyment and understanding of the game of golf."  (Maybe Dan the editor can clean that up."

Mine: "Why does Rustic Canyon have such wide fairways? Because golf is more fun that way -- for novices and experts alike.

"Rustic Canyon's generous fairways, like those of The Old Course at St. Andrews and other classic links, give the player an array of strategic options off the tees -- and abundant angles of approach to the greens.

"Simply put: *You* decide how to play the course; the course doesn't decide *for you* how it must be played.

"You'll spend less time hunting for your wayward tee shots, and you'll end up losing fewer balls -- which means that your round will move along with a pleasing briskness.

"We hope that you'll discover the subtle challenges of charting your own course from tee to green. It's the way we think golf was meant to be played."

--------------------------------------

BTW: The course looks better with every new photo.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here is a glimpse of how the layout of the hole looks and what angle you are coming at on the tee shots. Especially one tee shot in paticular.

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