[Bill Brightly]

I must say the Eden hole bunker is far more menacing than the road hole bunker at OM. The Eden bunker is so small, you feel very very claustrophobic.

Richard,

Oh really? I'm pretty sure Rob Miller might disagree...

[Richard Choi]

I will see your picture and raise you a video!

http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae275/koyoen/?action=view&current=VID00022.flv

That is Rob Miller laughing uncontrollably at the end. I would like to note that both Miller and Riggs witnessed my magnificent escape from the Road Hole bunker little later.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll call your raise. Here's Rob's actual first swing, and his second attempt set up...

[Richard Choi]

Did I mention that it took me four swings to get out?

[Bill Brightly]

Rob drilled the second one right into the sod...the ball went straight up in the air, landed on the front of the green and actually had a little overspin as it trickled forward to the pin. The guy is obviously a Road bunker specialist.

[Tom_Doak]

I think that the OM version of Strath is too understated.  It is one of the few disappointments I found at OM.  I've played TOC many times over the years and find that the fear of navigating the 11th green complex is welded on your mind the first 10 holes.  Think holes leading up to 10 at PVGC, 17 at TPC, and the 5th at Royal St George.  The same simply isn't true for the OM version.  JC

That would have been a neat trick since our Strath is on the SECOND HOLE. 

[Tom_Doak]

Looks like there is a very slight angle to the bunker face. I wonder if Tom or Jim would answer this question:  were the strath and road bunkers tested so that skulled shots from the bunker would "ride up" safely in the air and not rebound into the players face?

Bill, we didn't hit any test shots.  The layers of sod were laid back slightly as we have learned from various UK greenkeepers.  It seems to me that they are now building even steeper faces for the Open rota courses in an effort to make championships more difficult but that was not our aim in Bandon.

[Bill_McBride]

Looks like there is a very slight angle to the bunker face. I wonder if Tom or Jim would answer this question:  were the strath and road bunkers tested so that skulled shots from the bunker would "ride up" safely in the air and not rebound into the players face?

Bill, we didn't hit any test shots.  The layers of sod were laid back slightly as we have learned from various UK greenkeepers.  It seems to me that they are now building even steeper faces for the Open rota courses in an effort to make championships more difficult but that was not our aim in Bandon.

When we were at Muirfield in 2007, the crew was rebuilding several sod wall bunkers, and appeared to be incorporating a slight bit of slope.

[JC Urbina]

Bill,

Each one of the sod wall bunkers were built by different people.

  Hole # 2,   The Strath
  Hole # 5,   The Cross bunker on Hog's back.
  Hole # 6,   The Dark hole behind # 6 green.
  Hole # 6,   The Beardies on # 6
  Hole # 11, The Road hole bunker.

Several people including Smiley ( Stein ) Mustache Mike, Crago, Macarten, Reisetter, C.J. and Carl

My only instructions to all of them was to have aprox a two to three finger spacing laid back on each layer as they worked there way up to the prescribed level. 

The waves in the top line of the  Strath were done by Jonathan Reisetter.

That's why each bunker has it's own personal touch.  it's the little things,  maybe not perfect but for sure different.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick:

The depth of the Strath at Old Macdonald is mostly based on what I thought Mr. Keiser would be okay with.  He didn't want David Kidd to have a lot of revetted bunkers at Bandon Dunes because he thought the customers would get frustrated with them.  I figured we could get away with it up until the bunker was deeper than eye level ... the difference between a 5-foot-deep bunker and a 6-foot-deep bunker is huge, psychologically.

As you have probably noted, though, I am not a fan of ever-deeper greenside bunkers.  I don't think they bother the very good player much, but they take a big toll on the average golfer.  The Nicklaus course in Traverse City, The Bear, has deep bunkers surrounding practically every green, and it is a nightmare as far as pace of play is concerned ... in fact, part of the problem is that anyone over 50 has a hard time just climbing in and out of those bunkers, much less raking them.

I guess I'm finding it curious that there is so much unbridled love for OM on GCA.com when the template features have been dumbed down (forgive me Tom, no insult intended) for the retail golfer.  I think that the endearing nature of the original Strath and Road Hole and Hell bunkers are their relative difficulty/impossibility.  So, I guess I prefer my Strath like the original.

Re The Bear, as I recall it, is an entirely difficult penal design that regular retail golfers are going to struggle with.  The bunkers would only be part of the difficulty and the pace of play issues.  But, I wish to report that I don't recall having a tough time just climbing in and out of the bunkers.  Some ageism is creeping into your generalization.   

   

[Sean_A]

Patrick:

As you have probably noted, though, I am not a fan of ever-deeper greenside bunkers.  I don't think they bother the very good player much, but they take a big toll on the average golfer.  The Nicklaus course in Traverse City, The Bear, has deep bunkers surrounding practically every green, and it is a nightmare as far as pace of play is concerned ... in fact, part of the problem is that anyone over 50 has a hard time just climbing in and out of those bunkers, much less raking them.

Tom

Then why the love for Yeamans? 

Looking at OM's Strath Bunker the problem of difficulty isn't depth - its the hard packed sand.  My guess is this bunker would be much more enjoyable if a guy can dig in for an explosion.  If the sand is gonna be hard packed then I would like to see bunkers used only sparingly for sure.

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

I'll call your raise. Here's Rob's actual first swing, and his second attempt set up...

  I missed it. Gib was talking.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

I guess I'm finding it curious that there is so much unbridled love for OM on GCA.com when the template features have been dumbed down (forgive me Tom, no insult intended) for the retail golfer.  I think that the endearing nature of the original Strath and Road Hole and Hell bunkers are their relative difficulty/impossibility.  So, I guess I prefer my Strath like the original.

Bryan,

You bring up an interesting point.

Historically, the template holes have been criticized and dismissed by many on this site.

But, suddenly, they're glorified at OM.

Now, I have heard wonderful things about OM from members of CBM courses who recently played OM.

So, I  have to wonder, what happened to change all of the criticism ?

I've long thought that the "template" holes have a special inate appeal in terms of their architecture and playability that allowed them to retain their popularity

Now, on the OM threads they seem to be more appreciated, if not glorified, perhaps because of the combination of their inate appeal and Tom Doak's use of them.

I've rarely come across a template hole I didn't like.
Maybe others have, but, I haven't.

So how do you account for all the new found love of the template holes ?



   

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat, can it have something to do with the location? Bandon has already received legendary status and this is the new course. Also, it is public, many people have never played the CBM template holes as his courses seem to be on private courses. (I know there are excpetioons)

Or could it be the Architect and the hype that all his courses seem to get?

Or both?

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, do you think the dissing of 'template' holes comes mostly from people who play them regularly, or from those who heard or read about them?

[Sean_A]

Pat

Does anybody think that OM's templates may look better and be in a  better setting than most Mac/Raynor templates? 

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

Pat

Does anybody think that OM's templates may look better and be in a  better setting than most Mac/Raynor templates? 

Ciao

  The site is definatly better.

  Anthony

[Niall C]

Pat

Undoubtedly (in my mind) its a combination of the architect, Tom Doak, giving the concept of template holes credibility again (at least with some of those people who previously dismissed them) and that perhaps previous efforts at template holes elsewhere were badly done in some way.

Also it may be like certain styles of music, you might not care for a particular style in general but when you hear the best performer of that particular genre you can appreciate it.

Niall

[Keith OHalloran]

Niall, are you saying that Tom Doak is the best at the genre of creating the template holes. I.E. he is better than CBM and Raynor? Or all architects that have done similiar type template holes?

I am just aksing so I can figure out what level we are elevating Doak to.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat, the only consistent criticism I have heard here is from few Flynn lovers, and Wayne no longer posts

The OM template features obviously benefit from a great site, a true links site with wind as a major factor. So many other MacRaynors are on parkland sites.  NGLA, Fishers Island, and Mid Ocean being the exceptions that come to mind.

Also, the build-up of anticipation on this website was incredibly high. Not just Tom Doak, but other GCA posters like Urbina, Bahto and Klein played a major role. We saw glimpes of it over the past two years. So we all can feel like we "watched" the course take shape and were rooting for our friends.

But I think the true test for Old Macdonald is how well it will be received by non-GCA geeks. Personally, I think the "average" golfer will love it because I believe template features really work and make for fun golf. My bet is that golfers who have no clue who CB Madonald was will rave about the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

Does anybody think that OM's templates may look better and be in a  better setting than most Mac/Raynor templates? 

Ciao

The site is definatly better.

Anthony

Anthony, have you been to Fishers Island and NGLA ?

[Anthony Gray]

Pat

Does anybody think that OM's templates may look better and be in a  better setting than most Mac/Raynor templates? 

Ciao

The site is definatly better.

Anthony

Anthony, have you been to Fishers Island and NGLA ?

  Pat...With the ocean and the fast and firm conditions I think the OM site is better. The course seems to be on a bigger scale with what surrounds it.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

I've been to Bandon and think it's terrific, but the site at Fishers Island is like nothing you'll see in the U.S.
NGLA, Sebonack and Maidstone aren't bad either.

I'm one of the few on the site that thinks Pebble Beach is a terrific site and a great golf course.

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