W100 New Courses?

[Steve_Roths]

Okay, it appears if the group agrees that Rock Creek should find its way onto the list.

Here is my guess for what else gets added or should be added:

Rock Creek
Old Mac
Lost Farm
Ellerston
Castle Stuart

So, that is five that would go on, what has to come off.  Or, what should be there that isn't?

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

You can argue if you want that all of those courses SHOULD make the next list, but I will bet you any amount of money there's no way all of them WILL make the next list.

There is no way Ellerston and Lost Farm will have enough visits from panelists to make the next GOLF Magazine listing; and I'm reliably informed that GOLF DIGEST is going to abandon its international panel altogether [though it is possible they will cobble together a list using the input of their various affiliates].  I doubt Rock Creek will have enough visits, either.

Castle Stuart and Old Macdonald are the only two I would bet in favor of for the next rankings.  There are plenty of candidates to get nudged off the bottom to make room.

[JC Jones]

Castle Stuart and Old Macdonald are the only two I would bet in favor of for the next rankings. 

You already have and I've already been looking at OM shirts online

[Ian Andrew]

It's easy to suggest something goes in, until you are left to suggest what comes out.
There was a good thread about this a while back.

What goes assuming five have to come out of the last 10?

91 Waterville Eddie Hackett, 1973 Waterville Ireland
92 Macrihanish  Charles Hunter, 1876 Old Tom Morris, 1879 Machrihanish Scotland
93 North Berwick (West) David Strath, 1878 North Berwick Scotland
94 Durban Country Club Laurie Waters, George Waterman, 1922 Durban South Africa
95 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean) Jack Nicklaus, 1994 Los Cabos Mexico
96 Scioto Donald Ross, 1916 Columbus, Ohio US
97 Tokyo Komei Ohtani, 1940 Tokyo Japan
98 Valley Club of Montecito Mackenzie, Hunter, 1929 Santa Barbara, Calif. US
99 Naruo  H.C. Crane, 1904 C.H. Alison, 1930 Osaka Japan
100 Royal Porthcawl  H.S. Colt, 1913 Porthcawl Wales

[Steve_Roths]

I would say that Waterville, Cabo Del Sol, Scioto, and Porth goes as well as a few further down the list.

I would also add Diamante as a potential to the W100 list. 

I think it should be interesting by 2013.  With Gil Hanse finally getting his crack at Bandon and Doak and C&C hitting their strides.

[Jud_T]

Hanse getting his crack at Bandon?  Is that confirmed?

[Steve_Roths]

There is an updated version of Dream Golf.  This was the Goodwin book about Bandon and the last chapter or so laid out the next two courses.  The Conservation course that C&C are doing that will cost $100 per round with all proceeds going to preserve Oregon coastline. 

And, it mentioned that Keiser was looking to get underway with the course down in town with Hanse as the architect.  He described the land as similar to Pac Dunes in the movement.

[Kevin Pallier]

The California Club should be in the next World Top100 list along with OM from what I saw in the US

[Sean_A]

It's easy to suggest something goes in, until you are left to suggest what comes out.
There was a good thread about this a while back.

What goes assuming five have to come out of the last 10?

91 Waterville Eddie Hackett, 1973 Waterville Ireland
92 Macrihanish  Charles Hunter, 1876 Old Tom Morris, 1879 Machrihanish Scotland
93 North Berwick (West) David Strath, 1878 North Berwick Scotland
94 Durban Country Club Laurie Waters, George Waterman, 1922 Durban South Africa
95 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean) Jack Nicklaus, 1994 Los Cabos Mexico
96 Scioto Donald Ross, 1916 Columbus, Ohio US
97 Tokyo Komei Ohtani, 1940 Tokyo Japan
98 Valley Club of Montecito Mackenzie, Hunter, 1929 Santa Barbara, Calif. US
99 Naruo  H.C. Crane, 1904 C.H. Alison, 1930 Osaka Japan
100 Royal Porthcawl  H.S. Colt, 1913 Porthcawl Wales

Regardless of what goes in, Machrihanish doesn't belong.  Despite an exceptional first ten hole run, there are too many ordinary holes coming back.  I too would vote for Porthcawl being dropped though I am greatly looking forward to having another go at Buda.  Dare I say it?  North Berwick, as much as I love the place, is it really top 100 in the world?  I vote no, but then once we start to drag out the funky outliers a top 100 list can be dangerously close to a list of courses with narrowed variety - which isn't ideal.  So on second thought, keep North Berwick if only as a reminder that golf can be funky and grand.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

It's easy to suggest something goes in, until you are left to suggest what comes out.
There was a good thread about this a while back.

What goes assuming five have to come out of the last 10?

91 Waterville Eddie Hackett, 1973 Waterville Ireland
92 Macrihanish  Charles Hunter, 1876 Old Tom Morris, 1879 Machrihanish Scotland
93 North Berwick (West) David Strath, 1878 North Berwick Scotland
94 Durban Country Club Laurie Waters, George Waterman, 1922 Durban South Africa
95 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean) Jack Nicklaus, 1994 Los Cabos Mexico
96 Scioto Donald Ross, 1916 Columbus, Ohio US
97 Tokyo Komei Ohtani, 1940 Tokyo Japan
98 Valley Club of Montecito Mackenzie, Hunter, 1929 Santa Barbara, Calif. US
99 Naruo  H.C. Crane, 1904 C.H. Alison, 1930 Osaka Japan
100 Royal Porthcawl  H.S. Colt, 1913 Porthcawl Wales

Ian:

I agree with you that anyone who says Course A should go into the rankings should also suggest Course B be dropped.

But the actual results have little to do with what an individual panelist thinks about which course should drop.  It takes a consensus there; and often, it's not the courses in the bottom ten that fall off the list, as some of those just made it on last time and are actually social climbers.

I didn't even notice Waterville and Machrihanish made it on last time.  I am very fond of the latter, but I don't really think it belongs on the list, unless the list is going to be made up of mostly links courses because that's the best kind of golf.  Durban and Naruo are the most overrated of the ten you listed, but North Berwick is probably the only one of the ten that I would be bummed to see fall from the list.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D raises a key point -- one of the major flaws in group ratings is the "consensus" manner by which they are carried out. What that means is that predictable patterns can be gleaned from the "consensus" of all the participants favor a certain type of profile or group think the result is that you get a listing of fairly similar type courses -- not everyone listed is a clone mind you but the differences become rather limited.

Sean raised another point that "consensus" formulas can't address -- varied architectural styles. I agree that "narrowed variety" does little for me -- in many ways I really enjoyed Doak's take in CG with the 31 best different flavors.

In regards to courses getting bumped I see #96, #98 and #100 saying adios -- although I agree w Sean (wow this is getting rather common) that Porthcawl has a good bit on its design menu than many imagine or even see.

[Anthony Gray]

  Castle Stuart and Old Mac for sure. I loved Diamante but I bet it won't get enough raters to play it.

  Anthony


 

[Kevin Pallier]

Ian:

I agree with you that anyone who says Course A should go into the rankings should also suggest Course B be dropped.

Tom

I suggest an easy swap: Bandon Trails for Bandon Dunes

FWIW - North Berwick shouldn't even be in the discussion of being "dropped". For mine it belongs in the front half of the list - not the tail.

[Cristian]

It's easy to suggest something goes in, until you are left to suggest what comes out.
There was a good thread about this a while back.

What goes assuming five have to come out of the last 10?

91 Waterville Eddie Hackett, 1973 Waterville Ireland
92 Macrihanish  Charles Hunter, 1876 Old Tom Morris, 1879 Machrihanish Scotland
93 North Berwick (West) David Strath, 1878 North Berwick Scotland
94 Durban Country Club Laurie Waters, George Waterman, 1922 Durban South Africa
95 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean) Jack Nicklaus, 1994 Los Cabos Mexico
96 Scioto Donald Ross, 1916 Columbus, Ohio US
97 Tokyo Komei Ohtani, 1940 Tokyo Japan
98 Valley Club of Montecito Mackenzie, Hunter, 1929 Santa Barbara, Calif. US
99 Naruo  H.C. Crane, 1904 C.H. Alison, 1930 Osaka Japan
100 Royal Porthcawl  H.S. Colt, 1913 Porthcawl Wales

Ian:

I agree with you that anyone who says Course A should go into the rankings should also suggest Course B be dropped.

But the actual results have little to do with what an individual panelist thinks about which course should drop.  It takes a consensus there; and often, it's not the courses in the bottom ten that fall off the list, as some of those just made it on last time and are actually social climbers.

I didn't even notice Waterville and Machrihanish made it on last time.  I am very fond of the latter, but I don't really think it belongs on the list, unless the list is going to be made up of mostly links courses because that's the best kind of golf.  Durban and Naruo are the most overrated of the ten you listed, but North Berwick is probably the only one of the ten that I would be bummed to see fall from the list.

Oitavos Dunes at #88 does not belong; only holes 5, 6, 10, 11, 13 and 14 are world class; Between the overwatered greens and housing/hotel encroached fairways, there is not enough left to make it onto the world top 100. I suspect that anything near high dunes too easily is rated world class in general; This course would also never make the list if it were in Scotland or Ireland. Anything linksy outside Ireland and Scotland is overrated in general I feel.

[Robert Thompson]

I'd argue -- and I think both Ian and Ben Cowan-Dewar are with me on this -- that Royal Porthcawl should be at least 50 spots higher on the list. It is an exceptional course and given all the attention it is getting given the nearby Ryder Cup, I'd suggest it should rise, not fall. I'd say it is significantly better than a lot of what is on the list -- European Club comes to mind, for example, and is surely comparable to the likes of Portmarnock in Ireland.

[Jud_T]

It's easy to suggest something goes in, until you are left to suggest what comes out.
There was a good thread about this a while back.

What goes assuming five have to come out of the last 10?

91 Waterville Eddie Hackett, 1973 Waterville Ireland
92 Macrihanish  Charles Hunter, 1876 Old Tom Morris, 1879 Machrihanish Scotland
93 North Berwick (West) David Strath, 1878 North Berwick Scotland
94 Durban Country Club Laurie Waters, George Waterman, 1922 Durban South Africa
95 Cabo Del Sol (Ocean) Jack Nicklaus, 1994 Los Cabos Mexico
96 Scioto Donald Ross, 1916 Columbus, Ohio US
97 Tokyo Komei Ohtani, 1940 Tokyo Japan
98 Valley Club of Montecito Mackenzie, Hunter, 1929 Santa Barbara, Calif. US
99 Naruo  H.C. Crane, 1904 C.H. Alison, 1930 Osaka Japan
100 Royal Porthcawl  H.S. Colt, 1913 Porthcawl Wales



 Anything linksy outside Ireland and Scotland is overrated in general I feel.

Whoa! Them's fightin' words in these parts!