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Richard_Goodale

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2002, 09:51:47 AM »
Tom

I'm not at all saying it should be either/or, I'm saying with most designs it just turns out that way, and for some designs, the set-up can make it that way (e.g. TOC at the 2000 Open).  When I play Pine Valley I'll be interested in seeing what ground game options are available.  I seem to remember vivdly you and others saying that there really weren't many.  Perhaps I wa having a senior moment.

A course allowing both options on virtally every hole can be designed.  One exists north of Inverness.  Even on that one, however, the best players will play the aerial game 90% of the time.  It's all in the percentages, as JakaB would know.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2002, 09:57:01 AM »
TEPaul:

I'd have to say I'm in agreement with you.  I did not like
what I saw on #17.  When only about 9 Tour pros hit the
green all day, something isn't right.

With that pin position, there was no way to run a ball to the
hole, thereby making that concrete green virtually
unhittable.

The part I did like, though, was that it did make everyone
think about their shot prior to hitting - it's just that no
matter how much thought was given, it was essentially an
impossible shot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Richard_Goodale

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2002, 10:19:47 AM »
I love it when these guys at these old line clubs built by golden age designers and who cherish shot values and creativity begin to complain when the best players in the world are suddenly confronted with a completely out of the box 200 yard par 4 1/2, as Darren so astutely observed!

Isn't this sort of thing EXACTLY what most of us on GCA have been looking for for some time?  Or do maybe we want them all wearing flannel pants and ties and hitting low hooking 200 yard 3-irons becuase that's all they CAN do?

Just wondering......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2002, 10:22:30 AM »
I may be mistaken about this, because I was not hanging on his every word, but I seem to recall that Johnny Miller himself, the guy who proclaimed (with explicit apologies to Arnold, which really shouldn't be necessary) No. 17 "over the top," said that a ball could get close to yesterday's pin if it landed in a VERY SMALL area JUST over the bunker.

What's wrong with that? These guys are supposed to be ... what is it? Oh, yeah! ... these guys are supposed to be good!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2002, 12:21:01 PM »
Rich:

PVGC:
#1=ground game option
#2=no ground option, short hole
#3=medium downhill par 3, no ground option
#4=ground option
#5= ground option
#6=ground option
#7=no ground option, short iron in
#8=no ground option, very short iron in
#9=both greens ground option
#10=short par 3, no ground option
#11=ground option
#12=ground option
#13=ground option
#14=no ground option, medium downhill par 3
#15=ground option
#16=ground option
#17=no ground option, short iron in
#18=believed to have no ground option but actually it does have about 10+ steps of a ground option approach!

Merion, btw has just about the same amount--seven no ground game option approaches!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2002, 12:30:03 PM »
Rich:

Don't think I understand your 1:19p post. Isn't what EXACTLY what we've all been looking for? I thought we were looking for interesting options to create various strategies and the more the better.

You've been looking for extremely high demand/high shot value, one dimensional holes whose single shot option requirements have a very low success rate for any level of golfer all along, haven't you?

Even that can work on a course in the right place sometimes but I don't think one would want to fill a course with holes like that or set up a course like that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2002, 12:50:45 PM »
Lynn S.,
Stewart Cink, when asked if he reads any books on golf, said that he likes to read books on architecture and I think he was quoted as liking the work of Hunter. So there is hope.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Richard_Goodale

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2002, 01:06:35 PM »
Tom

I am looking for holes that offer both options, but I also very strongly believe that one or two penal/heroic/screw-around-with-our-brains holes per round are interesting, particularly when the pros are playing.

Thanks for the update on PVGC.  FYI, all holes at Dornoch but 5 and 10 have very viable options for both the aerial and ground games.  Also, in both those two anomalies, the shot to the pin is a short one (100-150 yards).  And, when Els played the 5th a few years ago (as chronicled by Lorne Rubenstein) he actually identified and tried to play the "ground game" by placing his drive on the little ramp to the left side of the hole that would have allowed him to drive this 360 yard green, if he had been just a little less imprecise.......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Bay Hill-design-setup-maintenance meld
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2002, 06:51:46 AM »
Shivas:

In my opinion, it probably isn't that worthwhile to get into things like 60/40 or 50/50--at least not in the mind and vision of an architect or designer! And certainly not in the context of all players or even all players of a particular level!

The thing for a designer/architect to do is to offer architecture that produces alternatives that may make any  player wrestle with the choices he has available to him. And available to him is important because options that don't function--that aren't readily used or seriously considered, in other words, are not good options!

You speak of things in your post like "a coin toss" or that the "WRONG option has the most appeal to the eye". But whose to say that the options are a "coin toss" and whose to say which is the  "WRONG option" or which option has the most appeal to the eye"? Options are predicated not exactly on right or wrong but on Temptation! And temptation is always in the make-up and decision making processes of the player, not the architect or even really the course!

These things are not so much for the architect to say, in my opinion! It's only for the architect to make available as many options to as many players as possible and let them choose for themselves. Who thinks which option is wrong or right or the least appealing or most appealing should not be of much consequence to an architect! Ideally if he can create something where a number of players would disagree about an option being right or wrong, the better the hole might be.

It always seems to come up in these discussions but Riviera's #10 seems to be the best example to make this fundamental architectural point.

GeoffShac has a way of explaining real tournament situations and what they mean in the context of architecture and its quality or lack of it, and in 1998 three players in the final group in the LA Open played #10 in vastly different ways and starkly different apparent risk/reward equations!

But somehow the genius of Geo. Thomas's #10 design induced them to do that. Three players playing a hole that differently is rare in Tour tournament golf. It's rare that three starkly different options would even exist on most holes for the Tour player much less be used differently by three players in a final group in a Tour pro tournament!

So it's really how much the designer might be able to put in the mind of any player to make him wrestle with his choices. That can create the element of indecision (something that's never good in golf) and that's ultimately where the architect and his golf course wins over a player--or at least it's how he can test a player best! It's not so much if the architect or course can test or defeat the player by penalizing him in a single and obvious one dimensional demand shot situation that has no other available choice! It's for the architect and course to induce the player to misunderstand and misapply his temptation or not, to defeat himself that way or to cleverly succeed that way himself.

To me it's not so much what the architecture does to the shot the player selects, it what the architecture does to the player to make him select any shot in the first place.

Strategy should never be the architect's or even the golf course's. Strategy should be the player's alone. Most good courses offer a lot of this, but not always, or not everywhere! But it's a good thing to offer the player these choices to wrestle with even before a club comes out of the bag!

And an "ideal maintenance meld" simply turns up by maintenance practices a player's awareness of all the available choices a design can offer him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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