[Garland Bayley]

...
As for the general comments, back when I used to participate in here a lot, I campaigned quite vociferously for high CR, low slope.. for the exact reasons stated in this thread... challenge the scratch, give the bogey a break.  It is a tough trick to pull off.  But when it is, it typically translates to FUN.
...

I was wondering if this thread would get the Huckster to come out of the shadows.

[Jud_T]

we tend to stay away from o.b., water, and lost ball situations.

Hey, maybe this course design thing isn't so difficult after all!  

[Adam Clayman]

Is OM still all one height of cut? Or at least no significant areas of standardized rough? When I was there 18 months ago it was all one height. Fun factor is dirtectly proportional to the freedom. Agree? Disagree?

[Doug Sobieski]

Is OM still all one height of cut? Or at least no significant areas of standardized rough?

Adam:

I played it about 10 days ago, and there is definitely a second cut, but there is so little of it that it's not even a factor. Players will certainly hit more fairways than normal, so it's nothing to worry about. In retrospect, the only time I was in the "rough" was after my standard opening duck hook off the first tee.

Overall, the course was an absolute joy to play. I just hope that players will attempt the shots that beg to be hit out there, rather than hit the stock shot because they are worried about their score. It's the kind of golf course where you will have a smile on your face from start to finish. Actually, not at the finish, because you'll be disappointed that you are done   

All the best,

Sobe

[Terry Lavin]

Is OM still all one height of cut? Or at least no significant areas of standardized rough?

Adam:

I played it about 10 days ago, and there is definitely a second cut, but there is so little of it that it's not even a factor. Players will certainly hit more fairways than normal, so it's nothing to worry about. In retrospect, the only time I was in the "rough" was after my standard opening duck hook off the first tee.

Overall, the course was an absolute joy to play. I just hope that players will attempt the shots that beg to be hit out there, rather than hit the stock shot because they are worried about their score. It's the kind of golf course where you will have a smile on your face from start to finish. Actually, not at the finish, because you'll be disappointed that you are done   

All the best,

Sobe

Hard to top that kind of "fun factor" recommendation.  It is a GAME, after all!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, Scott Szabo,

I've never heard another golfer tout a golf course by saying, you've got to go play X, it's course rating is Y and its slope is Z.

Most of the comments refering/touting another course that I've heard are based on the experience, not the statistical analysis.

I went to Bandon, Oregon, completely in the dark as to the course rating and slope, had a great time, have touted the courses since, and don't have a clue as to what the course rating and slope are.

I have no idea as to what the course rating and slope are at Seminole, NGLA, GCGC, Shinnecock, Sand Hills, Sebonack, Friar's Head, Westhampton, Mountain Lake, Mountain Ridge, Hidden Creek or Pine Tree.
Nor do I have any idea as to what they are at any other course I play more than occassionally.

Those numbers are completely irrelevant to me, and probably to 99+ % of the golfing world.

If someone quizzed me on the course ratings or slopes, I'd get a ZERO.

But, if someone quizzed me on the playing experience, routing, holes, features and the overall design, I think I'd do pretty well, and, that the prospective golfer would get an a pretty thorough description of the course I was touting.

Word of mouth on the course, not two numbers, course rating and slope, are the best indicators of the playing experience.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Since I don't play from the tips, the ratings for the Green and Gold tees seem reasonable. I can't seem to find the yardages for the various tees. Anyone know the answer?

[Scott Szabo]

Patrick,

I certainly agree with you and your assessment.  Perhaps that's why some of the great ones don't even have their courses rated?

I was a bit curious as to how Old Macdonald compared with some of Doak's other works (as well as the other three courses at Bandon) is all.  It's plain to see that Doak and Urbina don't desing with these thoughts in mind, and their courses are all the better for it.

Scott

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Now that you brought it up, I'd be curious to know the course rating and slope at Sebonack.

I know one thing, that course is HARD from the back tees.

While I would play it from the back tees if forced to, I'd rather not.

You can enjoy yourself plenty without having to test a course from the highest course rating and slope

[Scott Szabo]

Rating 77.3
Slope 151

How much of that is Nicklaus responsible for?

[Sean Leary]

Rating 77.3
Slope 151

How much of that is Nicklaus responsible for?

The owner is the one who wanted a difficult course to be built..

[Scott Szabo]

Sean,

When was the last Nicklaus course that WASN"T one with a high course rating/slope?  I'm sure Mr. Pascucci got what he wanted out of the duo, but do you think that the result would have been the same if only Doak had been the designer? 

[Garland Bayley]

Scott,

Now that you brought it up, I'd be curious to know the course rating and slope at Sebonack.

I know one thing, that course is HARD from the back tees.

...

How long is it from the back tees. The single biggest factor in determining course rating and slope is length.

[Sean Eidson]

In my experience, the course ratings at Bandon are merely a suggestion based upon weather conditions that may or may not have ever occurred on the coast of Oregon.

When we played Pacific Dunes last summer in winds the caddies described as "about a 9" on the 10 point scale, my father-in-law, who's a 4 handicap, shot 90 from the green tees.  Course rating was 69.3-125.  As a 15 handicapper counting every stroke and penalty, I shot about 120.  The wind made the course practically unplayable.

Yet on a calmer morning, two days before, I shot 93 with a triple on the last and my father in law shot 76.  Those scores seemed far more appropriate given the course rating. 

[Mark Smolens]

Scott:

That's one of the highest Slope Ratings of any of my courses, actually.  [Black Forest is an early exception.]  Slope rating for our courses has always tended toward the low side, because we tend to stay away from o.b., water, and lost ball situations.

Course ratings and slope tend to be quite different from one state to the next, so I never worry much about them.  I would not think that Old Macdonald would have as high of a course rating as Bandon Trails, but probably a bit higher than Pacific Dunes because of the extra length.  It does not strike me as being a very hard course ... eight of my team were just out there, and in two rounds they did not lose a ball.  A bad scoring round will generally include a lot of three-putts from 60 feet.

I will play it in 10 days with a good representative group (Evans Scholars donors), and will report back after that.

Based upon this last sentence, I don't want to hear any crying from Mr. Doak about not being "rusty" at next month's Midwest Mashie event at Lost Dunes.

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