Are higher green speeds ...

[Richard Choi]

Richard Choi,

Aren't Belly and Long putters a transferance, a reliance on the big muscles rather than the small muscles ?

Patrick, I am a belly putter and I can tell you for certain that it does not transfer more work to the big muscles rather than the small muscles. What it does do is it eliminates unnecessary movements in vertical axis (thanks to the belly staying where it is) and makes the pendulum stroke more consistent, but rest of the stroke is identical. I have just as much yips of pulling or pushing as before. I just don't have as much instances of hitting too high or hitting the ground before the ball.

[David_Tepper]

Pat M. -

Thanks for your concern & advice.

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard Choi,

I don't think you have a grasp on the muscles involved in putting traditionally, versus belly or long.

I've objected to the concept of being able to "ANCHOR" the putter to the body, be it belly, chest or chin.

Once you anchor the putter, a different dynamic and physics is created

[Richard Choi]

Patrick, I respectfully disagree.

I would agree with you if vast majority of the players today were putting like Palmer and Nicklaus in their heyday which was very wrist dominant. But the modern putting method is all about replacing wrist and arm action with big muscles in the back and shoulders. If you look at PGA Tour players, you can draw a straight line from the shaft to the body and the contact point will stay pretty constant throughout the stroke. It is not much different than what you would have from a belly putter.

Look at the short game guru like Pelz and what he teaches. It is all about eliminating wrist and using the pure pendulum motion for putting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, I respectfully disagree.

I would agree with you if vast majority of the players today were putting like Palmer and Nicklaus in their heyday which was very wrist dominant. But the modern putting method is all about replacing wrist and arm action with big muscles in the back and shoulders.the stroke. It is not much different than what you would have from a belly putter.

Where did you get the notion that Nicklaus was a wrist dominant putter ?

If you look at PGA Tour players, you can draw a straight line from the shaft to the body and the contact point will stay pretty constant throughout the stroke. It is not much different than what you would have from a belly putter.

Alignment and muscle use are two seperate items.[/b]

Look at the short game guru like Pelz and what he teaches. It is all about eliminating wrist and using the pure pendulum motion for putting.

Richard, what you don't understand is that the use of the wrists was REQUIRED when putting on slow greens.
When you had a 30, 40, 50 or 60 footer you HAD to use the wrists in order to get the ball to the hole.
As greens sped up, the need for the wrists on approach putting diminished.

Perhaps I should have incorporated the "stymie" and the need for the use of wrists in this thread

[Richard Choi]

Patrick, isn't this quote...

Where did you get the notion that Nicklaus was a wrist dominant putter ?

... in conflict with this quote?

Richard, what you don't understand is that the use of the wrists was REQUIRED when putting on slow greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, isn't this quote...

Where did you get the notion that Nicklaus was a wrist dominant putter ?

... in conflict with this quote?

Richard, what you don't understand is that the use of the wrists was REQUIRED when putting on slow greens.

Absolutely NOT.

Now will you answer the question as to how you determined that Nicklaus was a wrist putter

[JESII]

Seemingly the less one uses the small muscles the more impact they will have if sprung into action...

[Richard Choi]

Now will you answer the question as to how you determined that Nicklaus was a wrist putter

Sure. I would be happy to.

Look at this shot from Jack's early days.



Compare that to Tiger's perfect big muscle pendulum.



You can clearly see from the first image that even though the putter head is about half a foot off the ground and at the end of the stroke, his hands and wrists are in between his thighs. His hands have not moved much at all. Most of his stroke is coming from the wrist.

Compare that to Tiger where at the end of the sequence his putter head is just as much off the ground, but his hands are well outside his left thigh. He is clearly relying on his shoulder motion for his pendulum action.

I think these pictures pretty clearly show the difference between the "classic" wristy putting stroke to the "modern" pendulum stroke using the big muscles.

[JESII]

Richard,

I hate to say it but your analysis of those two is dead wrong.

Look at Jack's left wrist. It hasn't closed, or folded.

Look at the last picture in each series of Tiger. At the apex of his backswing it's virtually a straight line from his left shoulder to the putter head. At full follow through there is a significant break or fold.

Simply the position Jack put his right hand and forearm make it virtually impossible to break his wrists much...it was positioned to accomplish the same thing Calc and DiMarco's claw grip does...eliminate the right wrist from taking over.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I'm a big believer in much of what you said in Post #24. I used to practice putting by not looking at the ball but looking at a spot I wanted to putt the ball near the hole. It worked so well eventually I did it for a few years and it was the best putting of my career. I stopped doing it for a pretty stupid reason actually.

I've never thought much at all about actual putting mechanics but I am a big believer the eyes play an important roll in putting mechanics and often a pretty negative one if looking at the ball during the stroke because you tend to move your eyes around too much during the stroke. And I think that is the actual reason why looking at the hole or a spot near the hole you want to run the ball through when you actually make the stroke works so well.

Since his college days Davis Love has used sort of a variation of that has he hits the ball as soon as his head has swiveled back from looking at that spot.

[Greg Chambers]

The cause or catalyst for the yips ?

Not the cause, but certainly make the yips more prevalent.  Fast greens cause the putter to hit a softer putt on short ones, making break more of a factor.  On slow greens, one would hit the ball harder, causing it to take less break, making the putt naturally easier.

If green speeds were back to 6-8 would anyone have the yips ?

Yes, bad putters would still have the yips.

If green speeds were back to 6-8 would pronounced contour and sloping make a dramatic comeback.

Absolutely, and the game would be better for it.

AND, if green speeds were back to 6-8 with pronounced contour and especially slope, would drainage be less of an issue ?

Yes.  And construction costs could potentially go down as there would be less need for subsurface drainage.