11th at Merion

[TEPaul]

"Usually stay away from Merion threads - as they seem to become spats.  That said, can't the "terror factor" of a demanding second shot transcend to, what should be an otherwise routine tee shot,  and impart some additional stress on the tee shot?  And, if, in the case at hand, if that tee shot is not readily visable, make it that much more demanding?  Isn't the 11th just a good example of using the 2nd shot to affect the nerves of the first shot in a synergistic manner.


Tim Nugent:

I'd say absolutely to your points in both questions. Well said (asked).

[Link Walsh]

Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?

Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s.  I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side.  But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind.  Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it? 

[JNC Lyon]

Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?

Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s.  I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side.  But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind.  Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it? 

I have not seen the course enough to know.  However, the green is set down in a valley with a steep hillside long of the green.  I would think the wind is very difficult to judge on that second shot.

[Anthony Fowler]

Although a small point since none of us ever saw it, I would also say the 11th hole of Merion is probably a big improvement over Merion East's original 11th l

Tom, do you have any old pictures of the original 11th?  Is it right that the tee box would have been on the other side of Ardmore Ave and the green was short of the creek?  Do you think this hole might have become an exciting drivable par 4 today with the slope feeding a well placed tee shot toward the green?  With an interesting green that slopes away from the golfer (and maybe the creek in play left and long), I can imagine a great hole sitting there.

[Chris Cupit]

Does anyone have any pictures they could post to this thread to show the rough line, blind tee shot, bunker complex, etc.?

Also, I remember a guy I went to college with telling me he saw the U.S. Amateur there back in the late 80s.  I can't remember the name of the guy who won it, but he was on the heavy side.  But my friend told me he watched player after player at that hole with a wedge in their hand wind up in the water because they couldn't figure out the wind.  Does the hole have a sort of Augusta #12 factor to it? 

No picture but it was Chris Patten from Clemson who won the '89 Am.. Beat Danny Green either 2 &1 or 3 & 1.  Played a lot of college golf with Chris--he was a lot of fn to play with and an incredible talent.  He also played well in the 1990 Masters.

#11 is completely blind off the tee.  I have to admit to being a little disappointed in the hole but only because I was so looking forward to it.  The creek is OK but just to the right of it is a chain link fence in pretty poor shape that really detracts visually.  I assume its the same fence along the right of 7 but near the green the fence was in sad shape.

If you miss the fairway, you have no chance to hold the green.

[Joe Bausch]

I have a number of good pics of the 11th hole.  I'll post a few tomorrow morning.

FWIW:  I love the hole.  It seems like an easy 4..... but a big number is also easy to make!

[ChipOat]

JNC Lyon:

I may have to start a separate thread about #18 at Merion just to give my disagreement with you all the publicity I can.

PLENTY of strategy off the tee and PLENTY of strategy on how you play the approach.

One of the great finishing holes in all of golf, I think.  It's reputation doesn't need Hy Peskin's picture for support.

[Joe Bausch]

Here are some pics of the 11th.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC Lyon:

I may have to start a separate thread about #18 at Merion just to give my disagreement with you all the publicity I can.

PLENTY of strategy off the tee and PLENTY of strategy on how you play the approach.

One of the great finishing holes in all of golf, I think.  It's reputation doesn't need Hy Peskin's picture for support.

What do you think the strategy is on 18 off the tee?  I like the hole, but I do not think there are many options other than a long drive down the middle.  The land is great, the green site is very cool, but I think the strategic aspect hole comes up a little short.  I would love to hear your thoughts.

[Dan Boerger]

Put the 11th in context: an exacting second shot to a smallish green and knowing that it's likely your last approach shot with a short iron make it a great hole. Not exactly a receptive green either; last time I played there I had a 9 in and though I hit the green only to see it rolled back right into the fringe.

[JESII]

JNC,

For what my opinion is worth, the 18th green is probably better approached from just short of the crest of the hill than anywhere in the next 50 yards beyond it, so many players will want to dial back their distance. Also, when doing that, the right side of the fairway provides a slightly flatter stance which helps in trying to hit a high soft shot from 200+ yards. Curious what else Chip would add to the tee shot strategies...

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Those pics are terrific.   Thanks for sharing as they show a hole from many angles that usually only gets photographed from the stereotypical approach view.

They need to "rough up" that bunker grass-face a bit, though.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Several current threads have mentioned the 11th at Merion as one of the greatest holes in golf.  What makes this hole so great and so memorable?

In my opinion, it is the worst hole on a truly great course.  It requires two do-or-die shots with very little strategy, and the green is less interesting than most others on the course (which provide quite a high bar).  The player must hit a ~220 shot to a very narrow, blind fairway, and then must execute a ~120 shot to a small target with trouble on all sides. 

Anthony, the required drive you reference is shorter than 220 due to the downhill nature of the hole and while the DZ isn't visible, the golfer has a pretty good sense of where the fairway/DZ resides if he looks at the visible rough lines, terrain and backround.

As to the 120 yard approach you mention, with a shot that short or shorter, there should be a premium on accuracy.

I don't find the hole overly demanding and I don't understand why you feel that a par is a right of entitlement on that hole, or any hole.

The only opportunity the player has to make a strategic decision is if he/she misses the fairway.

So you don't think club selection on the tee is a strategic decision ? 

Do you go for the green or chip it sideways (the latter is correct for most lies in that rough)? 

There are other decisions, namely, do you go left or short of the green.

Obviously there is a lot of history on this hole with Bobby Jones clinching the grand slam here, and the green site is photogenic.  What are the other merits of the hole, and why is it so famous (especially compared to the other 17 on the property)?

Jones's milestone is certainly part of the story, but, I don't know if it's any more famous than # 1, # 3, # 4, # 5, # 9, # 10, # 12, # 16, # 17 or # 18

[JNC Lyon]

JNC,

For what my opinion is worth, the 18th green is probably better approached from just short of the crest of the hill than anywhere in the next 50 yards beyond it, so many players will want to dial back their distance. Also, when doing that, the right side of the fairway provides a slightly flatter stance which helps in trying to hit a high soft shot from 200+ yards. Curious what else Chip would add to the tee shot strategies...

A little late on the response.  However, my sense is that such strategy of "dialing back" is only relevant on midrange and shorter par fours.  18 is 500 Yards from all the way back.  My sense is that most players will want to get as far down as possible and not worry about the elevation change.  Even from the 450 tees, I think MOST players will just bomb driver.  Furthermore, laying back from the downslope still leaves the player with a difficult lie.  The ball will be well above the feet.  That was the impressive thing about Ben Hogan's shot for me.  He was hitting a 1-iron, and it was from a lie that is difficult for a 7-iron shot.  The approach might be from a better lie from farther back.  However, the tradeoff is not enough to club down off the tee.  Hence, I still see very little strategy on that tee shot.

Again, I still think 18 at Merion is a good finisher.  I do not think all golf holes need to be inherently strategic.  The quarry, the swooping terrain, and the elusive green site make Merion's 18th a unique hole.  However, I would rank 15, 16, and 17, among others, ahead of the 18th.

[JESII]

JNC,

No sweat on the timing.

I'll respond to the first paragraph a little later, but for now maybe you can elaborate on how #16 exceeds #18 in any category.

[JNC Lyon]

I think the second shot at 16 is one of a kind.  The quarry gives the hole a look that is completely unique.  While the land is wild at 18, there are still other holes like it.  Not so with 16. 

I think the internal contours of the 16th green are more interesting.  I probably did not get a close enough look at 18, but the green did not appear nearly as interesting as the 16th.  The hole plays completely differently depending on the pin position. 

I love the quirky nature of the 16th.  It gives the hole a charm that the 18th does not possess.  The string of bunkers to the right the green is very neat.  It fits into Merion's collection of odd but fun features.

Finally, I like that the 16th has an out for the weaker player.  A short hitter can play around the quarry to the right and find the green easily in three shots.  The only option for a short hitter on 18 is Paul Runyan's strategy of chipping down to the forward tee.  As much as I love Little Poison, I do not think his option makes the hole less unreasonable for short hitters.

I appreciate that 16 is not strategic off the tee.  It does not present the tradeoffs and decisions that holes like 5, 7, 10, or 15 certainly do.  Yet for the reasons above, I prefer it to the closing hole.

[JESII]

Thanks JNC, that's good stuff and I can't disagree with any of it other than the people that go around to the right are more likely reaching the green in at least 4 but that's besides the point. #18 doesn't really give that player an option at all does it?

As to the tee shot options on 18 - the lay back option is a good suggestion for top players. I didn't see the Walker Cup much so don't know, but if I were caddying in a good amateur (or better) tournament I would strongly suggest my guy lay back. If conditions are so favorable (firm and/or downwind) that it seems realistic to get down close to the bottom of the hill I'd change, but if the best the player can realistically expect to do is 20 - 40 yards beyond the crest they'd be better off laying back.

Once I've talked you into laying back, the preferred angle is an interesting decision. I believe the right portion of the fairway is somewhat flatter, but the left offers a better look into the green, even if only slightly.

Regardless, this is a hole a good player should be looking to make a 4 on and the long iron from the top of the hill carries less risk than the mid iron from the rough on the downslope.

[archie_struthers]

 


Number 11 is the most reminiscent of the shots needed on the other Merion , the West.   Lots of shots like this over there, where accuracy trumps distance and power.

I'm a fan of the tee shot on eleven although always think rough should not be so hard as to make the option pitch  out or pitch out , this is certainly the case at Merion the last few times I played the hole. It was fairway or no choice.

As to blind shots the fairway on number four is blind for me      it always moves after I hit the tee shot

[JNC Lyon]

Thanks JNC, that's good stuff and I can't disagree with any of it other than the people that go around to the right are more likely reaching the green in at least 4 but that's besides the point. #18 doesn't really give that player an option at all does it?

As to the tee shot options on 18 - the lay back option is a good suggestion for top players. I didn't see the Walker Cup much so don't know, but if I were caddying in a good amateur (or better) tournament I would strongly suggest my guy lay back. If conditions are so favorable (firm and/or downwind) that it seems realistic to get down close to the bottom of the hill I'd change, but if the best the player can realistically expect to do is 20 - 40 yards beyond the crest they'd be better off laying back.

Once I've talked you into laying back, the preferred angle is an interesting decision. I believe the right portion of the fairway is somewhat flatter, but the left offers a better look into the green, even if only slightly.

Regardless, this is a hole a good player should be looking to make a 4 on and the long iron from the top of the hill carries less risk than the mid iron from the rough on the downslope.

The fairway 18 is very narrow, and it plays even more narrow due to the right-to-left.  There may be tradeoffs between the left and right side.  Yet I would not consider those options on the tee.  At that stage in the round, on a brutal par four with a narrow fairway, I am just trying to get the ball in the fairway.  It is hard to choose a side of the fairway on a hole like Merion's 18th.  Again I think the tee shot decisions apply only to a small percentage of the population.  I see your points on the downslope versus the flat lies.  However, I still do not think these features are enough to put the 18th in the top tier of holes at Merion.