New 2010 North Carolina Golf Course Rankings

[Chris Buie]

Duke vs. Mid Pines?  Are you kidding?  It kind of makes me wince to even see those two courses in the same sentence.  A dozen courses in the Pinehurst area better than Mid Pines?  John must be trying to be provocative and stir up debate because that is quite absurd.
I played Duke many times when I lived in that area.  It was ok.  I liked it better than Finley which is a kind of sacrilege since I went to UNC. 
Regarding Mid Pines, I'll just say it is one of the most charming and enjoyable courses you'll ever play.  If you haven't played it - especially this group of aficionados - I highly recommend that you do.  Just because it not a heavyweight challenge like some other courses don't think it is a pushover.  Play it from all the way back and you'll probably find it more of a challenge than you were anticipating.  It's a true gem.
Speaking of Duke and UNC - today is the big game.  Is there a better rivalry is college sports?  Sports in general?  I doubt it will be too much fun to watch for the UNC fans.    Duke gets to make up for losing four consecutive year at home.   

[Ed Oden]

Why no Diamond Creek?

Niall, I don't believe Diamond Creek is interested in any of the major golf publication rankings, much less this one.  To my knowledge, the few raters that have seen it have been guests of and accompanied by a member.

Ed

[John Moore II]

Chris: I wasn't trying to be provocative. I just don't like Mid Pines. I played it the same day I played Pine Needles and just didn't like it. I think all the Ross courses in Pinehurst are better than Mid Pines, or at least equal. I could list which courses I think are better if you like, and of course we can discuss, if you like. Yes, I think NCSU is better than Mid Pines, Duke is better than Mid Pines, IMO. Finley is not. Just my opinion though.

[Roger Wolfe]

I played CCNC Dogwood for the first time last Saturday.  It was gorgeous with
some really unexpected elevation changes.  It plays through a residential
neighborhood but I honestly cannot remember any houses.  It also has a lot
of water, but I can only remember it significantly coming into play twice on
two par threes.

Really neat place... definitely stepping back in time (1972 - haha).

[John Shimp]

The most fascinating thing to me about this set of ratings is how Old North State stays doggedly up near the top.  Shows that people love a dramatic finish on water.  It honestly may not be in the top 5 fazio's in the state much less number 3 in the state.  Really a whiff that just keeps sticking.

[Brian Freeman]

Roger,

The elevation changes are one of the best aspects of CCNC Dogwood - it's a great piece of property.  I think they are a great template of how to do housing on golf courses - lots are all very large (at least 1-2 acres), well set back from the holes and camouflaged by the woods, and never really come into play.  I don't think there's internal out of bounds anywhere except the driving range off #1 in case of a wicked slice.  The housing is done in such a way that you don't really notice it at all.  Just a very peaceful walk through the woods, very walkable but I don't think you can ever see one hole from another.  It's very easy to putt out on #18 with the same ball you started with on #1, but still shoot way over your handicap.

There's a great cross-hazard on the par 4, #15, if you miss the fairway in the summer (which I always seem to do), the combination of a longer iron approach and the thick bermuda rough make that a definite consideration.  If you hit the fairway it's pretty much a non-factor.

Also water in play on the 1st par 5, #5, and #18.  #5 only comes into play if you challenge the green in 2 or hit a terrible 3rd, and off the tee on #18.  I think #18 is the worst hole on the course, nothing strategic to the hole, just gets you back to the clubhouse and straight uphill on the 2nd and 3rd.

John,

Played NCSU again last weekend.  The group assessment was WAY too much sand in the bunkers, nearly every shot that got near one resulted in a buried lie, 6 of 7 for me, which made any type of recovery shot near impossible.  Tough to make a fair assessment outside of that since the bunkering is a key element of the design.  I'd be very interested to see a tournament there, especially with the bunker situation.  I would be very interested to see how some of the top collegiate guys get around there.

I'm a huge fan of Mid Pines, played it once and just absolutely loved it.  The green complexes are incredible, challenging but not to the extreme of a #2 so a more recreational vs. tournament course.  It felt very authentic as if little had changed since Ross's era.  If one wants a lot of length in a course it is on the shorter end since it's an older course but I think it's plenty long enough to provide a good test.  It should definitely be played from the tips for anyone 10 HCP or better.  Maybe we just have different taste in designs?

[John Moore II]

Brian: I don't remember the bunkers at NCSU. I only hit in two I think and I don't remember them being that thick and sandy. I wish I was close enough to go back and see. But from what I remember, I didn't have any buried lies, and I hit some shots in to them pretty high. But whatever. Yeah, maybe we have different tastes in courses, because I just didn't care for Mid Pines.

[jim_lewis]

John:

I'm pretty sure that Old North State has hosted the NC panel on a regular basis for several years, sometimes maybe twice a year. I don't know how that might have influenced their ranking. I imagine that most of the panelists have played the course several times.

[A.G._Crockett]

Brian: I don't remember the bunkers at NCSU. I only hit in two I think and I don't remember them being that thick and sandy. I wish I was close enough to go back and see. But from what I remember, I didn't have any buried lies, and I hit some shots in to them pretty high. But whatever. Yeah, maybe we have different tastes in courses, because I just didn't care for Mid Pines.

John,
My experience at NCSU was similar to yours; the bunkers actually seemed pretty good to me, especially given the recent weather.  I don't remember any problems there.

FWIW, I'd rate NCSU as the best of the three college courses, with Finley having a very, very slight edge over Duke.  That edge may be personal preference rather than the GCA merits of the courses, but I think Finley is a little more enjoyable as a day-in/day-out place to play.  Neither are anything special, and Lonnie Poole may end up being special, especially if they figure out something to do with #3.

But you have REALLY made me want to see Mid Pines, which I never have to this late date!  You are the only person I've ever heard say they didn't care for it, and the only person I've ever heard rate Duke ahead of Mid Pines.  I respect your opinions, so I'll have to check it out.

[John Shimp]

Jim,
Heavy hosting you think would lead the reviewers to finally conclude "this place is friendly but it really isnt that good"?
I've played it 3 or so times and still cant remember all the holes on the front.  I do remember feeling like i'm playing thru a neighborhood.  The golf courses finish is nice and there are many strong holes but its far from the complete package to be ranked 3 or top 15 in NC.

[Roger Wolfe]

The most fascinating thing to me about this set of ratings is how Old North State stays doggedly up near the top.  Shows that people love a dramatic finish on water.  It honestly may not be in the top 5 fazio's in the state much less number 3 in the state.  Really a whiff that just keeps sticking.

My "internal guage" for whether a golf course is great or not is how many holes I can remember.  At
ONS I remember #1 being bad... and #18 because of the water.  That's it.  The rest of the holes
remind me of playing Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach.  "The Club at Longview" south of Charlotte is the
same.  Elk River is the same.  Peninsula Club is the same.

A good comparison is The Palmetto Club.  I remember almost every hole and have only played it once.

[John Moore II]

A.G.- Mid Pines had some good holes, #12 especially, but I thought the par 5's were really nothing special, the par 3's except for the one on the back thats really long were just average, and the par 4's all seem to run together.

Now, I guess I should let it be known again that I tend to hit the ball a real long ways and that Mid Pines just didn't impress me much, perhaps for that exact reason. Though I greatly enjoy Southern Pines and Pinehurst #1, and they're shorter than Mid Pines from what I recall.

I guess I can't really explain in great detail, Mid Pines just didn't "feel" good to me.