Why ? Why ? Why?

[Tim Nugent]

Mike, I've struggled with this over the yrs.  I could machine rake 30 bunkers in about 2 hrs. And another couple hrs to hand rake the edges.  So, figure 4 hrs/30 or 60 in a day. Now if there are no sand bunkers, that same area still needs to be mowed but only at 1/3 the frequency (and no hand work).  Plus most sand bunkers need to be edged a couple times a season.  If the sand bunkers have elevated faces, rain can cause sluffings - more hand work.

Bottom line, sand bunkers are more expensive to maintain than grass.  However, the incremental amount depends on the size and efficiency of the crew.  The big bugaboo is HAND WORK.  No one wans to do it when they can just be sitting on a mower all day.  But then I see guys married to weed-wackers all day long because someone planted  Bluegrass around the trees.  Go figure. It all boils down to priorities.

Personally, while I think, given the right site, one could do a good bunkerless course, I think the general public would look at it as if something were missing.


GoogleEarth where the old bunkers were  The oneson the west holes wereput in by my father when he raised those holes out of the floodplain.  The little pot on the 17th on the east is all that is left from a ribbon, shelf bunker that I put 3/4 the way around the pond I dug for irrigation water.  BCG did pay for the improvements, but you can see they have already taken some out.  Why, because it affected THEIR bottom line.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see something like this in Modesto.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Jim Kennedy I'd argue that golf would have been very popular with or without the construction of muni's  given the unusual and remarkable allure of the game.  Assuming that you were talking about polo with tongue firmly embedded in cheek your statement  re-begs the question  of why growing the game may indeed have hurt the quality of the architecture.  


THe  original  query asked if golf archtiecture would have been of higher quality if we weren't looking to be inclusionary and."grow the game" .

This seems to be born out by the fact that the  finest courses in the world tend to be high end private venues , with the obvious exception of Pebble Beach ...

 We've discused it before but it seems architects have "dumbed down " their designs in the desire to make them playable for the widest swath of the golfing public ...in my own case this influence tended to stop me from taking some chances that I probably should have in building Twisted Dune....

[Mike Cirba]

Tim,

Thanks for the info.

Forgive me, but I missed the name of the Chicago muni in question.   I'd definitely like to see what you mean on Google Earth...which one is it?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hey Archie Struthers  

Municipalities were giving golf away for free, or a couple of bucks for a season pass, way back at the inception of the game. Golf has allure, no doubt, if it didn't we would not be spending all this time yakking about it. I don't think it would be as popular though, if it weren't for the efforts of those who pushed for free or low cost golf for every person.

Some of the finest high end private golf courses in America are that way because the clubs could afford them, not because of exclusionary policies. There are (and most likely were) just as many youths, women, the aged, the slightly infirm, and hacks populating them as well as the munis.

I've listened to you and the other architects on here talk about dumbing down courses and I know that it's a fact of life, but I believe that many of the courses that were built as munis in the early part of the last century were more simple affairs because they were seen by towns mainly as recreation.

When private capital entered into the 'game' it's as likely that the dumbing down was about spending less so that the operator could reach as many pocketbooks as possible as it was dumbing down to the various skill sets.

[Richard Hetzel]

Jason, I just had a talk w/our HS Athletic Director.  I pointed out that over the summer, there are school sponsored camps/programs for just about every sport except golf and bowling - the 2 sports that could include the most kids as a certain body type is not needed.  However, due to the fact that schools have to purchase time from outside facilities, they don't.  I suggested that if a high school can spend money to build ball fields, tracks, pools, basketball & tennis courts, wrestling and gymnastic rooms, why not build a short game/putting area?  He responded with "it would cost too much to maintain, we don't have anybody who could do it".  When I suggested that there is perfectly acceptable synthetic materials out there that require hardly any maintenance and that could be performed by anyone capable of maintaining a ball field, he was at a loss.

He wasn't at a loss. In fact, such small numbers of kids participate in golf, the numbers (squeeky wheels get the grease, and the "fields") just don't dictate going the extra miles for those sports like golf.....plain and simple...and UNFORTUNATE.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jim K , no disagreement that the muni's increased the number of golfers, or that private investment capital strives for a ROI ....

I certainly don't think being exclusionary in the sense of gender, race or golf handicap  makes clubs better , though that subject could draw quite a discussion here ...

my inclusionary reference was strictly about building to make the course more playable, more fair to a greater amount of players, there is a good argument that this causes the architecture to be slightly less than what might have been

[Jim_Kennedy]

Archie,
Your contention is that the architecture is made to be more playable and fair so it will be more attractive to a greater number of players. My contention is that dumbing down is about dollars first because if it was more profitable to do otherwise that is what we'd have seen long ago.

We're on the same page, different paragraphs.

[Tim Nugent]

Mike Ciirba - it's Indian Boundary golf course. Owned by the Forest Preserve District of Cook County, just SE of O'Hare airport, along the Desplaines River. The fairways are bluegrass and used to be mowed wall-to-wall, but now they mow at different heights.

 Since we did almost all the work on the County courses for over 30 yrs, (until they wer Privatized w/BCG) it's safe to say, we had a pretty good understanding of the how's and why's of muni golf. (not to mention developing and operating a public 9-hole /range in the Northshore).

[Mike Cirba]

Tim,

Understood...and a shame because it looks as though the bunkering drove some of the strategy.   

Would you say in your experience that mowing wall-to-wall is generally cheaper?   

[Tim Nugent]

Mike, Cheaper? Yes and Yes.  but remember, this is a very, vey flat site (although I did construct some mounds to separate play and keep the medical bills down)   Probably ruined the course    With wall-to-wall, there weren't many obsticles in the way and large gang mowers were used.  Like I said earlier, it is all Bluegrass.  It was unirrigated until I put in an irrigation system, so the turf wasn't overly lush and 1-1.5" grass was easily playable by the chops who play there.  Purists would bemoan the "flier"  and lack of definition and consider it "cheap".  But they did maintain it with only a 3 guys, a foreman and a couple guys guys mowing (and a part-time mechanic who was also a full-time fireman (on 24-off 48hrs).

[Mark Molyneux]

I feel a responsibility to grow the game but I'm only marginally aware of the economics, the number of courses, the rounds per course that might be sustainable, and a lot of other considerations like the $600 driver. I've been a this game for 50 years next year. I thank the people who brought me on board in 1961. I thank them every time I step up to a tee.

From my perspective, growing the game means opening the door and inviting new folks into the party that golf can be. Growing the game means imparting some enthusiasm and a general appreciation of what the game can mean over a lifetime. It implies that there will be an occasion when a beginner expresses some apprehension about "... hitting in front of people". Met a guy at a range one time who was three quarters of the way through a large bucket and he had a pretty nice swing. I remarked about his swing and asked where he liked to play in the area. He responded that he'd hit at ranges for 15 years but he was still anxious about going out on a course. A willingness to grow the game requires that you have the capacity to share an occasional round with a dub, staying positive and supportive the whole way.

I believe that golf is the greatest game just as I believe that the Rolling Stones are the greatest rock n' roll band in the world. I'd be glad to sit down over a pint and explain why I believe what I believe. First Tee grows the game. Golf Channel grows the game. Tiger and Arnie and Jack and Sam and Ben and Byron grew the game. I applaud them. I celebrate this game and I have more fun doing that in a big crowd than I could ever have by myself or even with a select group of friends.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If anyone really wants to have a positive influence on growing the game with new players they can always find a kid to fund for the season.

It's no harder than going online, finding a course in your general area that has reasonable junior season passes, or very reduced rates, and calling them to find out who could use such funding.

Doing that might even feel better than buying a pair of $2,000.00 alligator shoes, or a set of $2,000.00 irons, or a $300.00 wedge, and the smile that you bring to your face might even last longer than an $800.00 golf bag.

[Rob Miller]

I know this may be considered a bit radical, but it maybe the reason that golf is not growing is that there is too much access reasonably-priced golf in the US. 

Considering a place like Korea as an example; to play a round for most (if you're living in Seoul) requires about a two-hour drive to the course, golf clubs that are double the price of the US, $200+ for the round, an invitation to the course and a weekday free to play (because playing on a weekend is nearly impossible).

Yet interest in golf in as strong there as anywhere else in the world.  Most, instead of making it out to the course, practice in a multi-storied driving range or in front of a screen.  Others spend their time watching the golf channel, the other golf channel or the golf instruction channel. 

Even here in Japan, I'm thinking about playing this weekend but all of the hurdles to play will probably force me to the usual lefty bay on the second floor of my local driving range.  In the meantime, the obsession continues to grow. 

If I was back in Pittsburgh, I could probably wake up on Saturday morning and play somewhere no tee time with a six-pack in the cart for around $30.

As far as youth programs go, I suppose you just need to hope that your father has a little bit of Earl Woods in him.  That by far is the best way to involved in the game at an early age.