From Phil Young's Post (#294) to Tom MacWood on the "Re: North Shore Long Island; Tillie---Raynor?" thread.
Tom,
You have presented as someone who was an architect hired by North Shore to serve in that capacity and also as a greenkeeper/professional.
I maintain that the opposite is true. That he was hired as greenkeeper/professional and that he was used by the club during the construction of the course to oversee the turf grow-in, primarily for the greens. Since you ask, the following quotes are but some of what you have posted on this thread:
"Glenwood ran into financial problems in 1914 and was sold to the Harmonie Club, which eventually changed its name to North Shore. In 1915 Robert White completely redesigned the course though he did keep five holes from the Emmet-Hubbell course. I believe he remained at the club for a number of years as the pro/greenkeeper."
"I have not found any mention Tilly being involved at any time, and the course is not included in his advertised list of designs published in the mid-20s. I've found no mention of Raynor either. I believe the bulk of the credit should go to White."
"At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project."
"All the evidence I've seen (and there is considerable evidence) points to Emmet - White."
You even tried top pass White off as the man who designed the changes to Shawnee in 1913 and that he was hired to do so, This despite Tilly's very clear and unambiguous statement that he was hired as greenkeeper only and that he was put in charge of the turf grow-in AFTER the changes had benn both designed and completed!
"By the way Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 (the course opened in 1911) to make some changes, after he had been involved in major changes at Ravisloe with William Watson and Aleck Brauer. Are you certain Tilly was involved in the Shawnee changes in 1913?"
Yet here we also learn that Watson was the architect there and that Brauer was the man in charge of the project and that White himself stated that he was the greenkeeper/professional during these changes and that NONE of the greens were changed since 1902!
Tom, you are the one who keeps trying to magnify White's role at North Shore. Again, his later accomplishments as both a professional and architect were outstanding. To ascribe them to him before they actually happened is simply not proper.
You asked me earlier a question that I refrained from answering, but I'll repeat it as it becomes in interesting example of how you choose to use the facts presented:
"Are you disregarding this excerpt from Steve's timeline? "On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."
I wasn't and haven't, but the important point for including this quote from your post is that you use it as gospel in one situation yet tell us it is wrong in another when you just stated to Mark, "The Emmet course was over 6000 yards, not 5000 yards..."
So one might ask, "Are YOU disregarding this excerpt from Steve's timeline?"
Another example of what you have posted in an attempt to pronounce White as the driving architectural design force behind North Shore is when you try to compare the relative experience in 1915 between Raynor and White.
For example, here's another question you asked which i didn't answer, but will do so now:
"I'll ask you since no one else seems to be able to answer my question. What golf courses had Raynor designed by January, 1915?" George Bahto can answer that better than I. But let me ask you, WHY DOES THAT QUESTION MATTER? According to the records of the club that Steve has produced, Seth Raynor was hired on November 5th 1914 to advise on course design issues. On January 26 1915 the club "approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course." So whether this would be his 1st, 5th or 101st golf course design doesn't matter because the INDISPUTABLE FACT remains that RAYNOR was hired by North Shore for the express job of golf course architect. So again, in case you missed it, based on that set of facts, what possible relevance does the question "What golf courses had Raynor designed by January, 1915" have?
Earlier in this thread you accused me of beuing close-minded. That isn't so. In an interesting twist to all of this, let me make you aware of something in case you weren't.
"Are you trying to discover the truth or you trying to prove your theory, because if you were really trying to discover what happened I would think you'd approach this subject with a more open mind..."
I have kept quiet about several things because I didn't want to appear as if I was wanting credit for what is CLEARLY Steve's discovery, but I believe he will understand when you accuse me of being close minded on this that there is a need to show you that not only I wasn't but that I was probably the most OPEN-minded of all involved!
Do you know HOW Steve discovered and then posted that the club minutes of the North Shore Country Club from 1913-198 were located in the New York public library in a special collection of the Harmonie Club? Its because I TOLD HIM! I found them and sent him the exact file number of the archives they would be found in. Do you know WHY Steve went to New York when he did to look them up? Its because he asked me if I was going to do so and I told him that I was ill and wouldn't be able to go until sometime after the new year. I asked him to come with me when I went and he decided that he wanted to go sooner. I am VERY glad that he did and made his discovery.
When George Bahto early on decided to remove North Shore from his list of Raynor courses because of the way the debate was initially going, who was it that told him NOT top? It was ME! Why would I do that if I was close-minded and even George had become convinced at that time that Tilly was the architect? Simple answer; it was because I was given information that no one else had been given that called into question the "proof" that was cited by the North Shore club history as proof that Tilly designed the course.
You see, the history was based on several things including an oral tradition that Tilly had been to the club and signed a contract in September 1915. I knew that was impossible because that ENTIRE month Tilly spent in FLORIDA working on Davista and several other Florida designs. The last week of the month he spent driving to San Antonio where he stayed until the beginning of November. During that time he designed Brackenridge park, Fort Sam Houston and the San Antonio CC. From there he went to Oklahoma and POINTS WEST.
In other words, Tilly could NOT have been at North Shore when their oral history stated he was!
I shared this information with both Steve and George and this also served as impetus for Steve to get to New York sooner rather than later.
When Mark Hissey decided to check on Steve's information by going into the New York Historical Society himself and the Archivist there informed him that the files and archives that Steve had viewed DIDN'T EXIST, WHO was it that gave Mark the information, the exact file number and location that the now embarrassed archivist would find and that would enable Mark to confirm Steve's discovery? Why it was me.
I'm sorry Tom, but it is YOU who is the close-minded one on this issue. There is nothing horrible about admitting when one is wrong. I've done it a number of times and will do so more in the future. Trust me, its cathartic. You're wrong on this one Tom.
To all, I apologize for the length of this, but felt I needed to give Tom a full and comprehensive answer to the question he asked.