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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« on: February 08, 2010, 09:49:06 AM »
Riviera was a lot of fun to watch this past weekend on TV, and even more so with a couple Midwestern guys playing great golf down the stretch.  :)

However, I couldn't help but notice just how narrow the 18th fairway is and how that the big slope on the left side of the hole has been covered in thick rough. It seemed most of the players were hitting their tee shots down the left center and letting the slope of the fairway bring their tee shots back 5-10 yards to the right, despite the best angle to the pin being from the right side of the fairway.

My question is this, wouldn't the hole be far more effective if they shaved the rough down on the left side of the fairway...even all the way up to the greenside area? It's hard to imagine that the hole would not be more interesting off the tee with players using the slope as a safe angle, but with a sloped more difficult approach, or even players with drives down the right side and are blocked out by trees have the option to play out left and use the slope to kick their approach back to the green. It also seems the hole is long enough that the elimination of rough wouldn't make the hole easy.

What does everyone think?
H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 10:27:16 AM »
Riviera was a lot of fun to watch this past weekend on TV, and even more so with a couple Midwestern guys playing great golf down the stretch.  :)

However, I couldn't help but notice just how narrow the 18th fairway is and how that the big slope on the left side of the hole has been covered in thick rough. It seemed most of the players were hitting their tee shots down the left center and letting the slope of the fairway bring their tee shots back 5-10 yards to the right, despite the best angle to the pin being from the right side of the fairway.

My question is this, wouldn't the hole be far more effective if they shaved the rough down on the left side of the fairway...even all the way up to the greenside area? It's hard to imagine that the hole would not be more interesting off the tee with players using the slope as a safe angle, but with a sloped more difficult approach, or even players with drives down the right side and are blocked out by trees have the option to play out left and use the slope to kick their approach back to the green. It also seems the hole is long enough that the elimination of rough wouldn't make the hole easy.

What does everyone think?


Pat,

Interesting comments.  I too was thinking about that hole yesterday as I was watching it and came up with a slightly differnt vision for what I would do.  I was thinking a big massive hairy bunker would look good on that little knob just short of the green on the left side.  You know one of those old style ones that McKenzie would do.

Something kind of like what he did at Lake Merced on this hole.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 10:42:47 AM »
That knob to the left is part of a very big hillside; it would be hard to build a bunker there that didn't look puny.

As for shaving down the area around the green, as Johnny Miller would tell you, it wouldn't work well because of the kikuyu.  You wouldn't get the kind of bounce and release you are expecting; in fact all pulled approach shots might land on a cushion and roll down softly to the hole.

You can see this at the great par-3 fourth hole, which George Thomas designed for a wide tee shot out to the right that funnels into the green.  Unfortunately, with the kikuyu, the shot he visualized just stays out wide right.

TEPaul

Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 11:08:42 AM »
"What does everyone think?"


I think they don't do that and won't do that because they have become excessively and perversely proud of what happens with Kikuyu grass when a ball lands in it and when one tries to recover from it.

It reminds me of the way it used to be down in Florida on courses such as Gulf Stream and Seminole with that long bermuda rough right around the greens except I understand kikuyu is far worse that way than the old bermuda rough surrounds were.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 11:17:24 AM »
"What does everyone think?"


I think they don't do that and won't do that because they have become excessively and perversely proud of what happens with Kikuyu grass when a ball lands in it and when one tries to recover from it.

It reminds me of the way it used to be down in Florida on courses such as Gulf Stream and Seminole with that long bermuda rough right around the greens except I understand kikuyu is far worse that way than the old bermuda rough surrounds were.


Tom, I don't know if kikuyu is worse than deep, thick bermuda rough or not.  I have played on kikuyu a fair amount at La Cumbre in Santa Barbara, and too much in deep, wet, thick bermuda here in NW Florida.  Kikuyu is more about what happens to the ball after the shot lands, bermuda is much more about getting the clubface on the ball and trying to impart spin.  The ball typically sits up in the kikuyu so contact is not a big problem, it's lack of bounce and roll upon landing.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 11:19:29 AM »
Are the fairways kikuyu as well? Could you re-seed the area if nessasary?

Has the rough line traditionally been where is is today, or did the fairway once reach a little further up the slope?

I understand this is probably all very unrealistic that Riviera would change anything with their 18th, but despite the kikuyu issue would it not make the hole more interesting from a design standpoint?

Thanks
H.P.S.

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 11:24:22 AM »
That knob to the left is part of a very big hillside; it would be hard to build a bunker there that didn't look puny.

As for shaving down the area around the green, as Johnny Miller would tell you, it wouldn't work well because of the kikuyu.  You wouldn't get the kind of bounce and release you are expecting; in fact all pulled approach shots might land on a cushion and roll down softly to the hole.

You can see this at the great par-3 fourth hole, which George Thomas designed for a wide tee shot out to the right that funnels into the green.  Unfortunately, with the kikuyu, the shot he visualized just stays out wide right.

Did Thomas/Bell plant the kikuyu (I guess not), or was it planted afterwards?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 11:42:59 AM »



"Kikuyu grass is a warm-season grass that spreads quickly and thrives in areas with moderate temperatures. It can tolerate heat and will do well under relatively shady conditions. Because of its extremely vigorous growth habit, it is considered to be a weed in coastal and some inland areas of California. In fact, in some areas Kikuyu grass is referred to as a super weed. It is seldom established as a desired turfgrass.

Kikuyu grass has a low disease incidence and is susceptible to cold temperatures, but is able to recover quickly from moderate wear or severe injury. Although once considered to be primarily a weed, kikuyu grass is now sometimes managed as a turf species.

Kikuyu grass is a coarse-textured, light green grass, sometimes mistaken for St. Augustine grass. The leaves are folded in the bud, the ligule is a fringe of hairs, and there are no auricles. It has slightly flattened, hairy leaf sheaths and tapering leaf blades with files of hairs. Kikuyu grass spreads by its thick rhizomes and vigorous stolons. Under ideal growing conditions, it can grow up to 1" a day and if left alone it can reach a height of 18".

Kikuyu grass is a low maintenance grass except for regular weekly mowing. It can tolerate low fertility and high heat. It can recover from drought conditions. Kikuyu grass has a low tolerance for cold temperatures. It has a tendency to "scalp" when mowed short. Kikuyu also has a tendency to create excess thatch and can be highly invasive."
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Nick Asbrock

Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 11:45:36 AM »
You need to favor the left side because the large sycamore and eucalyptus trees block your angle to the green from the right.

I know torrey pines tried to get rid of their kikuya grass for the US open with no success. That stuff grows like a weed near the ocean in SOCAL.



Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 12:03:02 PM »
You need to favor the left side because the large sycamore and eucalyptus trees block your angle to the green from the right.

I know torrey pines tried to get rid of their kikuya grass for the US open with no success. That stuff grows like a weed near the ocean in SOCAL.




Not only was the removal unsuccessful -- it was a mess.  I played Torrey during that time.  It was horrible.  Worst I'd ever seen it.

To our resident trufgrass experts -- can you slow the growth of invasive kikuyu if you lessen the amount of water on a course?

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 12:08:43 PM »
Actually the Kikuyu at Torrey Pines was encouraged by severly limiting water; mainly to kill off the cool season grasses. During the summer preceeding the Open the fairways were quite brown. Carts were also limited to the continuous cart paths for over a year. The result was an almost pure stand of Kikuyu in the fairways; the roughs were and still are a mixture of many grasses. Just prior to the Open those fairways, cropped close, were perhaps the best surfaces I've ever hit irons off. Allowing the carts back on the fairways has ruined that.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 12:53:35 PM »
One of the best shots I have seen hit on the 18th at Riviera was made by Dave Stockton in the 1974 LA Open. He was just off the fairway on the left hand slope and hit a 247 yard three wood onto the green. Sam Snead was his fellow competitor and I heard that he was needling Stockton about what a tough shot he had in front of him. Snead and John Mahaffey came in second.


Nothing should be done to that hole under penalty of 30 lashes with a rhinocerous hide whip and 30 days of bread and water.


Bob

Nick Asbrock

Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 01:28:15 PM »


Did Thomas/Bell plant the kikuyu (I guess not), or was it planted afterwards?
[/quote]

see link below

http://www.therivieracountryclub.com/html/history.cfm?history_ID=3

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 02:28:38 PM »
So what was Riviera's playing surface before then? Bermuda?

I for one thing they should keep the kikuyu on the side of the 18th. Side hill kikuyu lies are what make the grass so unique! My home course was on the side of a hill and was also kikuyu and I can tell you that having that rough provides not only more of a challenge, but more interesting shots which take a lot of practice to get used to.

I would call this greensite a false punchbowl, it looks inviting, but if you try to use the slope it could end up disastrous.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 07:37:34 PM »
Alex

I never considered the approach as a punchbowl - more of a natural ampitheatre ? As the sides were too far back for mine ?

It's a damn tough finisher the rough around the green at the time I played it was as thick as any on the course.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18th at Riviera - Rough Lines
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 07:44:29 PM »
Alex

I never considered the approach as a punchbowl - more of a natural ampitheatre ? As the sides were too far back for mine ?

It's a damn tough finisher the rough around the green at the time I played it was as thick as any on the course.

Didn't mean to imply you did.  ;D