13 at Augusta

[Jeff_Lewis]

There is an interesting consensus developing in the press about the changes at 13, which used to be, perhaps, the most strategic hole in golf. Many players and commentators believe that the added length to the turn of the dogleg means that players are no longer compelled to hit a big draw (or hook). So, with the added length, they believe the hole is easier and less strategic. I agree. The creek is now less of a factor.
What a shame.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

I continue to be skeptical.  Perhaps they are just setting the stage for moving the green back fifty yards as Ron Whitten recently speculated.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Now THAT would be tragic....13 is a greensite that has to be seen in person to be appreciated. I will never forget the first time I saw it in person and realized that it was absolutely straight out of Scotland...it is a links course's green....phenomenal.
I believe Lorne Rubinstein once wrote a piece comparing TOC to ANGC, and though it initially seemed like an odd comparison, the article was quite compelling...13 and 14 greens are as Scottish as they could be...

[Dan Kelly]

Beware of consensus in the press!

Or anywhere else, for that matter.

[Jeff_Lewis]

I convey the consensus as such because I have not seen the changes with my own eyes. Aforesaid consensus also has the fortunate aspect of making sense, if one considers what they are saying. Appreciate the heads up, though

[JamieS]

John Daly said on Golf Talk Live last night, that he had played the back nine on Monday...he hit 3 wood - 6 iron into #13. Not much strategy needed there.

Also said...of the changes, it was easier for him to pick a club for the tee shots.

Added length not that big a factor:
John Daly:
#10- Rope hook 2 iron, 8 iron
#15- Driver, 9 iron
#18- 3 wood, 7 iron

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Be patient, fellows, and give the changes at #13 a chance.  

[Hootie]

Remember fellas, these changes are not for todays Tiger, I mean, players, but the next generation of long hitters.

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

Great call about the greensites on 13 and 14.  You can add 3**, 4, 5*** and 6 into the mix of links-like holes/greensites as well.

Did you see 13 before the Nicklaus swale was added?  It certainly has an artificial look to it today.  Nature didn't create hollows like that.  THe setting and placement of that green, however, is as natural as any I've seen.  I'd hate to see that greensite moved or changed any more then it has already.

[BCrosby]

After paying $400,000 to Augusta Country Club to add all that extra length to no. 13, yesterday Charles Howell hit an 8i, Sergio hit a 7i and Allenby hit a 6i into the green.

The Masters ball may be here sooner than you think.

Bob

[TomSteenstrup]

If I remember correctly, David Duval hit a 5 iron into the creek in the final round in 2000, which eventually lead to VJ Singh winning the tournament.

I though Duval was a long hitter... and that was only 2 years ago.

Tom

[Jeff_Lewis]

The hole was still the perfect length, even with modern equipment....look at how many times guys laid up or failed to hit the green in the last few years...the tightness of the dogleg was what made the drive so difficult....don't turn it over, you are in the trees, do turn it just a bit too much, you are in the creek...now a straight ball will get you to a spot that is probably 1-2 clubs longer...big deal.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff Lewis;

It seems to me that you are correct about the difficulty of the hole in the past.  It wasn't so much about total distance, it was whether the controlled draw from the tee came off or not.

If it didn't, the player was up in the pine straw, wondering where the heck to lay up (there is really no good layup position to some hole locations), and caught in the quandary of whether to go for it anyway.  

I'm not sure that it's the same hole for most players now.  Would a player of Curtis Strange's length in the 80s still  unwisely "go for it"?  Unlikely.

[algore]

You must have the courage to change.  

[David_Elvins]

Tom Steenstrup,

I think Duval hit six iron.  THe beuaty of the shot was that he had the ball well above his feet and felt that he needed to hit a fade to get it to stop near the pin.  He blocked it big time and the rest is history.  

I think, from my (very limited) perspective the the changes mean that
a) it will be harder to get the tee shot close to the creek meaning there will be more players playing from hanging lies as listed above.

b) If players want to really draw the ball around the corner they will have to draw a driver instead of a three wood.  This is a lot harder to do so although a good tee shot will be in a similar position to last year, there is a higher degree of risk, there will be a lot more bad tee shots and interesting scenarios in play.

c) There should be a lot more variety to the tee shot, meaning although some players will still hit 7 or 6 iron in, alot more will not.  Therefore it shoud seperate the good players from the average.

I would not take any notice as to what 3 players hit into the green in a practice round.  Obviously they put their drivers into an A-one spot in the practice round.  Lets see if they can do it in the final round of the tournament.  There was no mention as to what direction the wind was coming from yesterday either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Lewis,

I'm not so sure it isn't a better hole with the additional length.

If you go back to some of the old footage of the masters, you see guys hitting 3-woods into that green, then it became long irons, then medium irons, and in some cases short irons.

Getting around the corner used to be a feat, and key to the the next decision.

Instead of drivers players were hitting 3-woods followed by the above clubs.

Let's wait, watch and see what happens, and talk about it Monday morning.

[TEPaul]

I've never seen ANGC in person so visualizing the hole and how everything about the middle of it connected to the placement of the drive is not easy for me.

Jeff Lewis might have a very good point that now the bend or difficulty of the way the drive used to be has been minimized to some extent because the hole has been stretched on the tee end and now drives might not be getting out to that dicey sloping area enough.

And I like what he says too about so what if the pros have 1-2 more clubs into that green? Again, the explosiveness of the distance increase in their irons has been so dramatic (maybe more so than the driver) that what difference does a couple more clubs really make to them?

Whitten recommended that a better way to length this hole would have been to stretch out the other end only--the green-end by moving the green back 50+yds. Technically to maintain the strategy of the hole he's probably right but that would be tragic and I would think impossible but who really knows with Fazio.

Frankly I'd rather see them just leave the hole alone and if they wanted to do anything to it maybe they could just call it a par 4. I sort of like the idea of a tour pro having to lay-up on a par 4 even off a good drive sometimes--that probably wouldn't sit well with them! It would probably force the more marginal ones to go for it more often than if it was a par 5 and force them into mistakes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think it is just the opposite.

I think the hole will play more like it did thirty, forty and fifty years ago.

Isn't that what everyone wanted ?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Patrick,

If the hole plays more like it did in the past (and it should), than the change will most definitely be an improvement.

Wonder if all the critics will report in Monday morning if 13 turns out to be an even greater hole?  

[C. Roberts]

Gary

The critics on this site will never claim it is a better hole.  That would give credence to the work the club and Fazio has done there - and that simply can not be.  To note:  When Ron Whitten writes unfavorably of Fazio designs they laud his insight into the poorness and repetitvness of his work.  When Whitten wrote that the changes at Augusta were done well with shotmaking and a return to the Augusta of the 60's and 70's in mind they jump him for being weak willed and a puppet to Augusta and Fazio.  Depends on perspective I guess...

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

C. Roberts,

You are probably justified in what you say. I love coming here and there are many undoubtedly fine people posting here, but I have observed some narrow mindedness, and some "situational" opinions.

I sometimes wonder if many ANGC members, Fazio, etc, secretly check in here to see some of the things said.

Stayed tuned, though, this is an interesting place!