What would you do to this hole?

[Chris Cupit]

Thie drawing on the right is my (poor) attempt to draw my 7th hole.  It is a longish par 5 that plays slightly uphill.  The fairway cants right to left but flattens out so that by the middle of the fairway to the left creek it is very flat.  The fairway is tight with a creek left, trees right.  The real issue is the creek that crosses at a diagonal.  Most right handed golfers fade a bit and the more your second shot leaks the longer the carry over the second pond.  A poor (short) drive means many players have to lay up and face a 200 yard third shot.

The farther right and safe you play off the tee, you have a hanging hook lie that can easily result in a pulled shot in the left creek.  The two small ponds are filled with silt and muck and are an eyesore.  Pretend you have a budget of $40,000 and we need to:

1.  Create, enhance startegic options for the hole
2.  Clean up the ponds and clean up the natural flowing creek that defines the hole.
3.  Originally (35 years ago) the crossing creek was piped and that could be done again.
4.  Some advocate pipeing and making the second shot less burdensome.  Cross bunkers may be a comprimise that allows the weaker/shorter hitter to play around the hazard instead of having to carry it or lay up.
5.  If I piped the creek I thought about adding a right fairway bunker to make a popular "bail out area" even tougher.  The fairway between bunker and creek would be about 35 yards. 
6.  I did remove three medium sized pines near the two ponds that really made the second shot tight especially for anyone hitting a draw. 

[JESII]

Chris,

Not sure about how to clean up or eliminate the ponds, but assuming that alone were doable...what would be the problems if you shortened the hole for all but the very back tee? If the risk of a hanging lie in the right side of the fairway is a negative, move the new tee(s) angle to the right a little.

[Will MacEwen]

Chris - my concern with the bunkers on the left is that they might only come into play for lesser players.  A long uphiller is already pretty tough for them.  I am an average hitting 8 index and even though the hole is uphill I could get over them in two quite easily I suspect.

They may provide more strategy for more players if they were around 120 yards out?

I do like the piping idea because I imagine the stream is pretty much a non factor for better players.  I'm not a fan of hazards that discriminate against the average player only. 

[Chris Cupit]

Thanks for the thoughts.
To clarify while the hole is slightly uphill the total elevation change tee to green is less than 10 feet so I apologize if I made it seem way uphill.

This is our toughest hole and I like the idea of some type of crossing hazard because I think it really puts pressure on you from the tee shot.

At the tips the player must comfortabley carry two shots 438 yards to easily carry the right pond.
At 534 a 4-12 handicap who averages 230 off the tee facy a second shot carry of 170 or so down the "long" right side and if he goes for the narrow sliver just carrying the creek on the left it is about a 140 carry.

At 478 for my seniors and 13-29 handicappers they need to hit the drive with roll about 190 yards to have the 145 carry.

the forward tee at 424 means a 165 drive means a 125 carry which could be too much for high handicappers and or ladies but I'm not sure .  I could move that tee up a bit.  The regular mens tee was the back of the 470 tee and made the hole 478.  The "better" guys wanted the hole a bit longer and the only good spot seemed at the 534 mark.

Anyway, please keep the suggestions coming--I lwould love to hear as many ideas as possible.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chris,
Move the front tee up 40 yards; clean up a section of the pond that's closest to the fairway and place the fill in the front two-thirds of the bunker that's between the green and the creek, plant cattails, etc. in the remaining silty areas of the ponds; turn the 3 fwy bunkers into one small but somewhat deep hazard; pipe 20' of the creek for the faint of heart.   
 

[BCrosby]

Chris -

What is the hole drawing on the left? An interim drawing? I think its a pretty good looking hole.

If we are working from the drawing on the right, (i) fill pond, (ii) cut fw wider on the right side of the LZ, (iii) turn fw gradually left starting 150 yards from green, and (iv) relocate green across the creek.

You get a par 5 that is a distant cousin with the 13th at ANGC. Of course that will completely bust your budget. But it would be nice to engage the creek as more that just a hazard that catches bad shots.

Bob

[Kirk Stewart]

Chris,

The 7th has always been my bug a boo both pre and post renovation. A tough hole when you have a pencil and scorecard in your pocket. I lhave always had a problem with the cart path both off the tee (left) and the 2nd/3rd shot (right). I would like to see the path moved to the right side hill and away from the creek off the tee shot and somehow have the path traverse back to the left side of the green and behind to catch the new tee on 8--or--make the path completly out of play by the green if it remains on the right side.  Can't tell you how many times I hit a good drive and tried to hit that green in 2 only to leak it a little right, hit the path and walk away with a 7x, thank you very much.

I think the path so close ruins an otherwise really teriffic green complex. Lastly, piping in the pond/creek would be a mistake. The hazard is not reachable off the tee as it was on #5 and it really presents an additional compelling factor for the golf hole.

A very tough golf hole for sure. Love it.

[Chris Cupit]

Thanks so far--this is great.

BC--the left drawing is just a copy of the right one and I ran out of room n the sheet of paper!  Most of the area left of the creek is off of my property.

Although at one time in the history of the hole the "534" tee was located left of the creek near the head of the detention pond (the small pond near the tees).  The angle was too severe and most players laid back off the tee versus trying to hit a big hook around the corner--the trees on the right came in too soon and a straight ball ended up through the fairway and in the woods.

The 534 tee is pretty much built on a dam and our large irrigation lake which isn't pictured starts right at its rear such that the left edge of the 573 tee is right on the lake's edge.

JK
You think the 424 is too long overall or because of the forced carry?  I rarely see women carrying the creek in two but I swear every time I shorten a hole for them they complain it is too easy.  Early in construction of hole #2 (another par 5) I had some women worry that the hole may be too short as it was about 390--I wanted a "easy" par 5 early in the round that was reachable by everyone if they felt "ready" but became sensitive to the "card length" after that conversation.  Also our forward tee on a par 3 was 88 yards and I was told it was an "insulting" tee for the ladies  Anyway, an extra tee or more forward tee would be an easy change.

Also the first thought was to fill in the first pond as you mentioned, dredge out the green side of the second pond and create a more straight flowing creek and using old cross ties, native grasses (spartina for wet areas is a favorite of mine) and create a bunker in that reclaimed area--we think we could make it cool looking and then clean up the rest of the crossing creek by laying it back a bit, grassing down to the water and deepening the channel in a coupe of places.

Also, erosion control in the form of surge stone, large rocks etc. (we have used gabions in some areas) would be placed on the far bank where the crossing creek merges into the left creek.

Will
You think the "pipe the whole thing" and use cross bunkers doesn't give enough room to play around?  Wasn't thinking that way but thanks for that thought.

Please keep any ideas coming.  I will post some "before" pics and then of course "after" when we are done.  (If it ever stops raining in Atlanta

[Chris Cupit]

Kirk

You are 1000% right about the path and the plan is to move it into the right trees as much as possible (and yes I know the futility of fighting roots but the cart path does ruin the hole in many ways).  The path would emerge from the right edge and connect basicly going over the front right pond before continuing between the right three bunkers and hillside.  Past the creek there just isn't any where to put it.

there is a little room near the green to bench it a little more up the hill so that may help some.

Please don't tell Melvin but I have to have paths.  I really do hate them but I gotta eat

[Chris Cupit]

One last bit o' info.  The main pond on the right was dammed and the result was a slow build up of crap and silt and a mudhole pretty much.  We have broken the dam and the result is a slow, steady trickle of water along the creek bed.  We know we will always have a sediment issue but are trying to "solve" it by building a series of small check dams up stream and creating areas along the creek that will allow us to get machinery in every year or so and clean out the build-up.  As it is, the silt pond is pretty big and we can't get a back hoe close enough to reach the middle of the pond and clean it out.

We know the silt will continue to steadily accumulate so we are figuring on way to get at it better when it needs to be removed.

[Will MacEwen]

Chris (I think I am getting your question right);

The bunkers definitely leave room to play around, I just wonder if they are really a hazard for decent to better players.  I would probably play the 534 tees and if I went 250-220 (not heroic by any means) then I am well over the traps. 

Maybe a few small bunkers up the left side so that they come into play for more situations?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chris,
Label the 424 box as the "Ladies championship tee", they'll love you for it and for building them a 390/400 par 5.

[Jim Sweeney]

Chris-

This idea is probably a budget buster but could you move the creek 30- 50 yards closer to the tee? It's current position, from yuor description, affects only the hgher handicapper and seniors. Moving it maked it a concern only for the longest hitters, yet you maintain its presense. I much prefer brooks, streams, and creeks to ponds.

other than that I say pipe it. I like the look of your alternate drawing.

[Chris Cupit]

JS,

The carry can be tough from he tips if you:
a.  Mis hit the drive (hit it 240) you then face a carry of 195 or so
b.  Hit it into the bermuda rough which can leave a dicey second shot
c.  Hang it up on the right slope as it's a pretty testing hanging lie
d.  In the trees you almost always have to pitch out short of the creek

But, you are right, the crossing carry is far less an issue for the best players and in the summer the hole is even reachable by some.

Moving the creek would be tough--we need a water course for drainage and digging too put pipe in would be tough and expensive and also may create issues during flooding events.  But, we did think of bringing the creek so that it would be more of a straight shot coming into our property and then into the main creek and that may move the creek slightly to the tee side by five yards or so.

For everyone:

If I piped it and put in the crossing bunkers and the right fairway bunker, do the three bunkers on the right look too "small".  Should they merge into one nasty large bunker?  Or, is the variation in size a nice way to break things up visually?  )I know it's difficult as the golfer's view is not a bird's eye view". 

Pics to come.

And thanks.

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