[George Freeman]

From what I've read on this site and elsewhere, when you have a bunker floating out in rough or unkempt long grass (especially on courses built by the ODGs), it's usually is a sign of fairway reduction.  Is this the case at hole #5 at Crystal Downs?  I've only played the course once, but from what I recall, the green is over the hill behind and a little to the right of the subject bunker, when viewed from the tee.  Was the intent to be able to run a ball close to the bunker and have it roll out near or on the green?  Was the fairway ever cut up to the bunker?

[Jon Heise]

My thoughts on #5 is that it's one of the easiest holes on the course.  Unless super windy, I dont see the left bunker or the 3 fw bunkers in play at all.  In my round, I hit a 3/4 slap driver to about 100 yards.  Now once on the green, who knows what'll happen, the green is wild.  I dont see any reason to aim for the lower fairway, as a good 3 iron or 3w could get most in prime real estate in the fairway.  Maybe it was different back in the day, but that big bunker is only there to look cool from the 17th tee, right?  

[JC Jones]

Could it be that the bunker is supposed to give the golfer, on the tee, an idea of where the green is?  From that angle, the green is almost directly over the hill/behind that bunker.  Although that's a pretty cool bunker to just be a reference point.

John,

Your "unless the wind is blowing" caveat is a pretty big caveat.  I've played the hole twice, once in the calm (birdie) and once in the wind (double).

[Bill_McBride]

As usual, I hate that "fairway bunker in the rough" look, but more for the 3 sisters on the right that should be within the fairway cut.

I was really burned by that steep left to right green, hit what I thought was a terrific PW at the top of the green and wound up almost having to stand in thin air to putt from the extreme right edge of the green!  I would love to have seen what that ball did, but the shot was blind.   This shot was a good example of how nice it would be to have the ability to shape a little draw into that slope to hold the ball up near the far left pin.

I didn't think it was the easiest hole on the course at all, as I three putted from way down there on the right.

[TEPaul]

George:

I've played that course a lot and that's a good question----eg was fairway around that bunker on the left (or even would it make strategic sense to put fairway around it today)?

I don't know the answer to that or even what would happen to the ball of a long hitter if he took his tee shot directly over that bunker on the left that seems to be from the tee surrounded by rough. What I do remember is you have to be careful not to hit a drive too far right as the land up there takes the ball farther right.

My thought on that hole (probably due to its lack of length) is that the tee shot should remain anything but obvious!  

[Bill_McBride]

Given the left to right slope of the green, it seems that the farther right you drive the ball, the easier your approach would be.   Therefore the best line would seem to be over those three bunkers, no?

[Brian_Sleeman]

The bunker does pose a problem for those who might try to bust it over for a closer approach, and the prevailing wind definitely gives that bunker some more action than you might think (the typical wind blows from right to left and into from the tee).  After a few plays, the confounding green tempts aggressive players into setting themselves up with a closer approach in order to have a little more control and a better chance at birdie.

Indeed the further right you are the better, but given the angle of the dogleg you have to challenge the tall stuff on the far/right side of the fairway in order to get that angle.  Just hitting it further right as it appears from the tee doesn't help you much, as it only leaves you with a longer approach.

The prudent play I've found is to play it to 100 yards or so and take your chances from there (and even then you're left with an uneven lie and a less than perfect angle in).  You may make anything from 3 to 5 that way, but if you try to force a 3 by challenging that fairway bunker and then find yourself in it, the sky becomes the limit.

As to whether or not the fairway once ran up against that bunker, there are others here who can provide more detailed information, but I can tell you that most of the course used to be mowed the same height from wall to wall.  In that case the "fairway" may have indeed run right around or adjacent to that bunker.

[JC Jones]

As to whether or not the fairway once ran up against that bunker, there are others here who can provide more detailed information, but I can tell you that most of the course used to be mowed the same height from wall to wall.  In that case the "fairway" may have indeed run right around or adjacent to that bunker.

 
That would be awesome to see again.

I think the three sisters have to be challenged because too far right and you are down the hill and at the entrance sign!

[George Freeman]

Interesting that the entire course was once cut at the same length!

Does anyone know the distance to reach the green from the tee?  The distance to clear the subject bunker?  It sounds like some daring players do have a go at the green with a line over that bunker?  Would this option be more inviting if the hill in which the bunker sits was fairway length and enabled the ball to roll down to the green complex if a drive didn't have the distance to clear all the long grass (as currently presented)?  Was that the original intent?  I don't recall a bunker on the left of the green that would grab balls coming in from the left (from tee shots or approaches)...

Any additional pictures of the hole/green complex (and possibly even an aerial) would be much appreciated!

[john_stiles]

Some old photographs do not support the notion that the entire course (present fairway/rough) was cut to one height, wall to wall.

[Tyler Kearns]

Interesting that the entire course was once cut at the same length!

Does anyone know the distance to reach the green from the tee?  The distance to clear the subject bunker?  

George,

Hard to see exactly where the back tee is on Google Earth, but I've guesstimated it based on the hole length detailed in Ran's course review at 355 yards. If that is correct, it is approx. 260 yards to carry the bunker in question and approx. 325 yards to front edge of green.

TK

[George Freeman]

Thanks for the aerial Tyler (and I hope all is well!)!

260 yards to clear the bunker from the tips, 325 to the front of the green...due to the slope of the hill beyond the bunker, one would think that a ball could easily roll down onto the green or just short of the green after just clearing the bunker, with the grass at fairway length of course.

We need some CD historians to tell us whether or not the fairway lines have changed at #5 over the years...

[john_stiles]

From old photos, the rough and fairway lines on hole no 1 look very, very similar to present.   Upkeep on number 9 grasses looks very similar to present.   The same goes for right side of 18.

The 5th is  a devlish, delicious green.   The area around 5th bunker in discussion (or maybe the 6th) looks very much 'natural' in old photographs,  but maybe not as thick as today.

[Mike_DeVries]

As to whether fairway was cut tight to the triple-donut bunker on 5, I don't know for sure.  But I do know that the course used to be mowed wall-to-wall.  Prior to 1981, there was little to no "native" rough on the course and it was blitzed by a tractor-pulled gang mower.  As far as playability, the area in front of the bunker could be mowed short and provide more options for players, as the older guys hit down the left side into a "chicken flats" type of area because they can't carry it over the big oak or 3 sisters to the top of the ridge.  A pulled drive by better players will now find the native in front of the bunker and it's a throw of the dice what kind of lie you get.  I don't think the shot from a fairway cut of grass would be easy from there -- blind, with the green falling away from you.

The oak tree left of the green was planted in the late 60's / early 70's as part of a beautification program and should be removed -- this would make a blind approach more difficult to judge direction (need to know the course and use the islands in the triple donut bunker) and the turf would be much better.

Some players try to drive the green but it is rare and I have never seen it done (or even attempted) although I know some have tried.

A GREAT hole!

[Bill_McBride]

As to whether fairway was cut tight to the triple-donut bunker on 5, I don't know for sure.  But I do know that the course used to be mowed wall-to-wall.  Prior to 1981, there was little to no "native" rough on the course and it was blitzed by a tractor-pulled gang mower.  As far as playability, the area in front of the bunker could be mowed short and provide more options for players, as the older guys hit down the left side into a "chicken flats" type of area because they can't carry it over the big oak or 3 sisters to the top of the ridge.  A pulled drive by better players will now find the native in front of the bunker and it's a throw of the dice what kind of lie you get.  I don't think the shot from a fairway cut of grass would be easy from there -- blind, with the green falling away from you.

The oak tree left of the green was planted in the late 60's / early 70's as part of a beautification program and should be removed -- this would make a blind approach more difficult to judge direction (need to know the course and use the islands in the triple donut bunker) and the turf would be much better.

Some players try to drive the green but it is rare and I have never seen it done (or even attempted) although I know some have tried.

A GREAT hole!

Mike, are you saying the 3 bunkers are directly aligned to the center of the green?  That would be a cool thing!

EDIT:  I just laid a ruler across that aerial posted above and YES!! - the bunkers are directly pointed to the center of the green.  I think that is a one of a kind.

[JC Jones]

Bill,

In addition, from the lower fairway (left from the tee) the brush/grass in the middle of the big bunker can also help your alignment as there are three clumps.  One for the front, middle and back.

I'd never realized that before, nor the alignment features of the three sisters.  Damn that MacKenzie is awesome (or does Maxwell get the credit for that?0

[George Freeman]

Bill,

In addition, from the lower fairway (left from the tee) the brush/grass in the middle of the big bunker can also help your alignment as there are three clumps.  One for the front, middle and back.

I'd never realized that before, nor the alignment features of the three sisters.  Damn that MacKenzie is awesome (or does Maxwell get the credit for that?0

That is facinating stuff!

[Padraig Dooley]

Bill,

In addition, from the lower fairway (left from the tee) the brush/grass in the middle of the big bunker can also help your alignment as there are three clumps.  One for the front, middle and back.

I'd never realized that before, nor the alignment features of the three sisters.  Damn that MacKenzie is awesome (or does Maxwell get the credit for that?0

That is facinating stuff!

There is a lot of interesting alignments of bunkers at Crystal, The alignment of the greenside bunkers on the 17th and the ones in the distance has been talked about before.

Further afield the bunkers at the Valley Club link together like jigsaw puzzles.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

In addition, from the lower fairway (left from the tee) the brush/grass in the middle of the big bunker can also help your alignment as there are three clumps.  One for the front, middle and back.

I'd never realized that before, nor the alignment features of the three sisters.  Damn that MacKenzie is awesome (or does Maxwell get the credit for that?0

That is facinating stuff!

There is a lot of interesting alignments of bunkers at Crystal, The alignment of the greenside bunkers on the 17th and the ones in the distance has been talked about before.

Further afield the bunkers at the Valley Club link together like jigsaw puzzles.

Padraig, agreed about the Valley Club (see below) as well as most Mackenzie courses.  The 4th at Cypress Point is another good example, from the tee it looks like one big field of sand with a few deer scattered around here and there!

This is the 15th at the Valley Club from about 100 yards.  From 30 yards farther back all those greenside bunkers, front, sides and back, overlap so it looks like one big one on each side of the green.  Great stuff.

[Mike_DeVries]

As to whether fairway was cut tight to the triple-donut bunker on 5, I don't know for sure.  But I do know that the course used to be mowed wall-to-wall.  Prior to 1981, there was little to no "native" rough on the course and it was blitzed by a tractor-pulled gang mower.  As far as playability, the area in front of the bunker could be mowed short and provide more options for players, as the older guys hit down the left side into a "chicken flats" type of area because they can't carry it over the big oak or 3 sisters to the top of the ridge.  A pulled drive by better players will now find the native in front of the bunker and it's a throw of the dice what kind of lie you get.  I don't think the shot from a fairway cut of grass would be easy from there -- blind, with the green falling away from you.

The oak tree left of the green was planted in the late 60's / early 70's as part of a beautification program and should be removed -- this would make a blind approach more difficult to judge direction (need to know the course and use the islands in the triple donut bunker) and the turf would be much better.

Some players try to drive the green but it is rare and I have never seen it done (or even attempted) although I know some have tried.

A GREAT hole!

Mike, are you saying the 3 bunkers are directly aligned to the center of the green?  That would be a cool thing!

EDIT:  I just laid a ruler across that aerial posted above and YES!! - the bunkers are directly pointed to the center of the green.  I think that is a one of a kind.

Bill,

I am talking about the 3 islands (triple donut) bunker in the long grass that is in the picture at the beginning of the thread, not the Three Sisters, which are the 3 separate bunkers surrounded by maintained rough.  If you are trying to align your shot to the green via the 3 Sisters, you are probably in them, in an awkward lie next to them, or even worse, so knowing they line up to the green is the least of your worries (that being said, one of the great shots of my life was an 8-iron from the third Sister (closest to the green) onto the green for a par, or was it a birdie?!?   

The more important alignment tools are the 3 islands in the triple donut bunker for when you are in a bad spot about 100-125 years from the green -- you have a decent lie -- and think you can make a great shot (or at least a halfway decent attempt to save par) . . .

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

As to whether fairway was cut tight to the triple-donut bunker on 5, I don't know for sure.  But I do know that the course used to be mowed wall-to-wall.  Prior to 1981, there was little to no "native" rough on the course and it was blitzed by a tractor-pulled gang mower.  As far as playability, the area in front of the bunker could be mowed short and provide more options for players, as the older guys hit down the left side into a "chicken flats" type of area because they can't carry it over the big oak or 3 sisters to the top of the ridge.  A pulled drive by better players will now find the native in front of the bunker and it's a throw of the dice what kind of lie you get.  I don't think the shot from a fairway cut of grass would be easy from there -- blind, with the green falling away from you.

The oak tree left of the green was planted in the late 60's / early 70's as part of a beautification program and should be removed -- this would make a blind approach more difficult to judge direction (need to know the course and use the islands in the triple donut bunker) and the turf would be much better.

Some players try to drive the green but it is rare and I have never seen it done (or even attempted) although I know some have tried.

A GREAT hole!

Mike, are you saying the 3 bunkers are directly aligned to the center of the green?  That would be a cool thing!

EDIT:  I just laid a ruler across that aerial posted above and YES!! - the bunkers are directly pointed to the center of the green.  I think that is a one of a kind.

Bill,

I am talking about the 3 islands (triple donut) bunker in the long grass that is in the picture at the beginning of the thread, not the Three Sisters, which are the 3 separate bunkers surrounded by maintained rough.  If you are trying to align your shot to the green via the 3 Sisters, you are probably in them, in an awkward lie next to them, or even worse, so knowing they line up to the green is the least of your worries (that being said, one of the great shots of my life was an 8-iron from the third Sister (closest to the green) onto the green for a par, or was it a birdie?!?   

The more important alignment tools are the 3 islands in the triple donut bunker for when you are in a bad spot about 100-125 years from the green -- you have a decent lie -- and think you can make a great shot (or at least a halfway decent attempt to save par) . . .

Mike

Got it, still very cool. I loved my one trip around that course (except for the 8s on the par 5s, best to avoid the left side rough both holes  ), looking forward to another go at those greens!

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