12th Hole bunker history Askernish

[Gordon Irvine]

Hi Jim in answer your questions. The greens this past summer were cut on average 4 times per week at a height of 7mm. This is on average 2mm heigher than most links courses with fescue greens.Greens speed on flat areas of greens has ranged from  6 to 10 feet depending on the weather conditions.
They were topdressed 3 times and given a light feed with one organic fertilizer based on blood meal,hoof and horn and seaweed.The vegetation is all native to the machair but not what is found on modern kept golf greens ie grasses, weeds and moss. The cutters will remove some and keep others within the putting surfaces but to some golfers critical eye they are not what they are used to.
I feel some changes will have to happen. We have been overseeding the greens this year with fescues to support the surfaces and fill in any spaces created as some vegetation dies back. The future food source for the greens will be seaweed mixed with the waste from the fish farm both local to the course.
The big decision for Askernish is one that has changed the face of most golf courses in the uk. The heavily contoured greens will struggle to be cut lower than 6mm. Some golfers will find the cotours un fair and as we all know most modern golfers dont like lady luck effecting play.My concern is that some of the amazing contours will be removed either from golfer pressure or cutting to low to cosmeticaly meet the needs of modern trends. Sadly I see this on many courses i visit where greens were altered to give more pin positions or to take away unfair areas !!!!!
 I have strongly expressed my wishes to the Islanders and the powers within golf to protect this course as a playing example of the origins of our great game but as always fincial pressure will decide.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gordon

Many thanks for that. I do agree that today’s golfers seem to look for the easy way. If the course presents a challenge in anyway, they do not like it and then out come the moans. Problem is they give up at the first test or go out looking for technology in the form of equipment to correct their own lack of real golfing skills. Hitting the ball a long distance is no proof of skill, but a good finish is where the real game counts and certainly proven in many competitions. I totally agree with you regard the Greens, after all what is golf if not a game over the natural landscape or is it closely meant to be related to snooker.

As for Askernish, many modern golfers will not play the course mainly IMHO for the reason that they do not have the mental state or skill to do so, yet put them on a chocolate box picture course, all fully manicured, then they have no problems. All I can say again is thanks for places like Askernish and guys like you who know what they are talking about. Great to have you on board

Melvyn     

[Steve Salmen]

Melvyn,

I view Askernish as a museum piece.  I suppose if the course was still an estate course and financial resources were of no consideration, it could very well remain in it's current form with incredibly undulating greens and relatively low green speeds.  The problem is that not very many people would get to play it.

I would personally want as many people to see the golf course.  If that means flattening some of the surfaces to pick up the pace and increase the number of pin positions, so be it.  I really don't think it would be dumbing down the course. 


Steve

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

“I view Askernish as a museum piece”  Steve we are then just light years apart.

Don’t know about ‘dumbing down the course’ but you certainly seem to convey and confirm my statement to Gordon about the majority of modern golfers. If it is not easy they go running for their Mums. It explains why the West can’t win a war and make peace afterwards

I wonder if there is anything else to say or talk about, if that is you reaction 'Museum Piece'?

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gordon,
What, no Eye of Newt? Do you mix the  ...."blood meal, hoof and horn and seaweed" in a cauldron under a full moon? Are there any special incantations you use to ensure a potent brew 

Did anyone long ago try introducing finer grasses onto the machair, and if you wanted to do so today would it even be possible given
the regulations, etc.?

There are many courses in the US that don't offer fast greens, but they do care about the quality of the surface, i.e., a smooth roll. It's just my opinion and your long-range business plans must be considered, but I don't think I'd make concessions to speed over smoothness of roll, especially given the nature of the course and the near links-like speeds you presently have.

The more 'concessions' to modernism you make the less unique you become. Hopefully you can find the right mix.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Sorry Melvyn.
I was treating you as a buddy of mine at the pub after our round on The Old Course - walking - and giving you a little jab.
I wish I had said so.

This thread seemed to be about a bunker.
There appears to be a history of allusion regarding the bunker.
I know nothing of the history of This Bunker.

Cheers

[Gordon Irvine]

Hi Steve that is the dilema !!! when I first started this all off it was to help promote golf on the Island. So for that reason I would agree with you. However after finding out about the history my feelings changed. In my opinion we found most of the original course that is not in the sea. The fact that the course was originaly abandoned but still grazed gives us a fantastic example of a mature Old Tom course that has not been influenced by the modern game,either greenkeeping or play !!! not Yet .
I agree that some greens are very contoured but that is exaggerated by their size in order to allow for maintenance machines to operate.I imagine they will all be larger than the original greens,remember the chances are Lady Cathcart might have only had the course prepared for golf on the few occasions she had summer guests and they would have prepared putting areas by hand.That is why the exact sites are not so important to me as they might have been flexible back in early times due to growth or damage at the time of cutting.
The fact remains there are very few examples of Old Tom courses that have been better protected that Askerish it just seems wrong to now alter it unless for reasons of repair to let golf be played.

[Gordon Irvine]

Hi Jim I dread to think what the islanders added to the mix but it works !!!! but seriously I have found a fantastic waste product from the local fishing net repair factory but that another story !!!!!!and it will be mixed in secret

[Jud_T]

personally I'm dying to play this museum piece....

[Jud_T]

steve, i don't think the threat of 30,000 rounds a year at Askernish is of imminent concern, and the whole point of the place is it's uniqueness...no one is heading to South Uist for another usga green....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gordon,
Thanks for the reply, and again, keep up the good work.  

Steve

“I view Askernish as a museum piece”  Steve we are then just light years apart.

Don’t know about ‘dumbing down the course’ but you certainly seem to convey and confirm my statement to Gordon about the majority of modern golfers. If it is not easy they go running for their Mums. It explains why the West can’t win a war and make peace afterwards
I wonder if there is anything else to say or talk about, if that is you reaction 'Museum Piece'?

Melvyn

"It explains why the West can’t win a war and make peace afterwards"

That remark ought to bring in the crowds from the free world.  

[Steve Salmen]

"Museum Piece" is a positive statement.  It refers to how golf was probably played 100 years ago.  I was not around so I'm speculating.  It does not mean it cannot be enjoyed today.  Just because some hickory clubs can be museum pieces does not mean that they cannot be used positively on the course.

 I have only positive opinions of my experience and the golf course at Askernish.  I would recommend visiting for everyone.  Visitor play will increase as past visitors tell friends and acquaintences of their wonderful time there and as the course itself evolves.

As for the bunker on #12, it's possibly the purest sand from which I've played a shot.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

maybe it is what was going on 100 years ago and maybe it is also, in part, what will become the norm as golf greens up

[Gary Slatter]

That seems like a reasonable question Brian...

Admittedly it does seem unusual to have such a blowout so far from the shore in an area of such mature dune grassland....

But even if cattle or a farmer did create it, we could then argue the true definition of the term "blowout". After all, blowouts are merely holes in the surface of the dunes, created by sand being blown elsewhere after the vegetation has been removed (by rabbit burrowing or even human intervention).

Ally

I have seen blowouts at Pennard nowhere near the coast - relatively speaking.  I had a chat with a geologist about this sort of thing and he believed that blowouts must occur(even without animals) until (and if) grass takes hold and somewhat stabilizes the dunes.  He also said that he is  quite clear why in nature (IE no intervention by man) some area of sand continue to grow while others stabilizes, but he suspects that there is a tipping point at which the dune process can't be stopped unless a natural barrier interferes. 

Ciao

Sean,

Blowouts generally occur nearer the coast because the highly specialised species on the younger dunes (i.e. the ones closes to the coast) are the most susceptible to damage. When you are inland and have more complete vegetation and organic matter, it takes more for blowouts to form naturally. They do however occur, even far inland.

I do not agree with your geologist. It is not blowouts that must occur in the stages until grass stabilises the dunes - that is merely the natural succession of the dunes from strand line through embryo dunes through mobile dunes through semi-fixed through fixed... they of course can, and do occur through most of these stages.... Blowouts specifically occur where vegetation is removed and then the exposed sand is picked up by the wind.

so if cows or sheep lay down in a hollow and kill the grass a blowout bunker might appear

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Gary... I'm not sure if you are asking or confirming... But yes, that's how I would see it...

As for lowering the green heights, if you can get them to 6mm with the current undulations, surely that is sufficient for golfers?... Will the course really suffer financially to the extent that you might have to flatten some of the greens?... I really hope not...

[Brian Phillips]

Gordon,

Sorry to ask a stupid question but it just jumped out at me to ask it.  Was the pit dug out by the cattle or the farmer that owns the cattle so that it could be used as a shelter?

Or does no one know who dug it cattle or farmer?

Gordon,

I might have missed your answer somewhere but if not could you answer this question?

Cheers.

[Gordon Irvine]

Hi Brian I dont know the history of where the sand pit came from but certainly that first winter i visited it was the cattle that were sheltering in it.However there was also a ring of stones where someone had had a fire in it probably local kids.
The same goes for the greenside bunker on the 8th we had to dig that one out as it had become overgrown with two feet high stinging nettles. Certainly not what you expect to find so near the beach. Some one had dumped rubbish there. So we dug them out and left the clean sand yes I guess for reasons of maintenance we created a bunker. However the ground contour was not altered.

[Gordon Irvine]

This pic gives a better view of the bunker

[Mike Hendren]

I'd bet a rabbit warren originally collapsed and over time the animals smoothed out the hillock whilst sheltering. I see those who were criticising the marketing budget and design of the bunkers have gone quiet since Gordon put the true facts down.

I'm back.   While I never commented on the marketing budget, I am intruged by your use of the the term "design" when speaking of the bunkers.  Then again, I'm easily amused.

I'm just teasing - maybe.  I think Askernish is very cool.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Brian Phillips]

Hi Brian I dont know the history of where the sand pit came from but certainly that first winter i visited it was the cattle that were sheltering in it.However there was also a ring of stones where someone had had a fire in it probably local kids.
The same goes for the greenside bunker on the 8th we had to dig that one out as it had become overgrown with two feet high stinging nettles. Certainly not what you expect to find so near the beach. Some one had dumped rubbish there. So we dug them out and left the clean sand yes I guess for reasons of maintenance we created a bunker. However the ground contour was not altered.

Magic!  Every bunker on a links course normally has history!  I love all the different stories of the bunkers on The Old Course.  You should make a note in a logbook to make sure the evolution of all your bunkers are recorded.  You might not think it important but when gca.com is still going in a hundred years it will make interesting reading.

Thanks Gordon.

[Gordon Irvine]

yes I agree Brian its funny how bunkers can cause such debate.

I have just started refurbishing the bunkers at Hunstanton and cant wait for the comments during work from every golfer that passes.