[Patrick_Mucci]

occured recently.

On one day I played in a greenskeepers revenge tournament at Mt Ridge and on another day I played in winds up to 40 mph at GCGC.

Both provided unique experiences that were incredibly enjoyable.

At Mt Ridge, a 1929 Donald Ross hidden gem, the holes were located in diabolical positions, near ridges, falloffs and contours.
The excitement, being aware of imminent danger and dire consequences was fabulous.
And, the greens were running at a very good, but not over the top pace.

Those locations accentuated the need for exceptional course management (strategy).

All too often today, hole locations are bland, catering to the lowest common denominator.

Architects create interesting greens for a reason.
Those putting surfaces are intended to present an interesting challenge, to make the golfer think and execute properly.

Locating holes in non-threatening locations defeats the architects intent, it mutes the challenge, excitement and fun.

Yet, I can almost predict Tuesday and Sunday hole locations at almost every golf course, and, they're practically the same, week in and week out.

Has golf evovled into catering to the lowest common denominator and whiners ?

Have interesting greens lost their appeal due to their challenging nature ?

[Adam Clayman]

Has golf evovled into catering to the lowest common denominator and whiners ?

Patrick, Maybe ten years ago there were a lot less of examples of course that do not cater to the LCD. However, Many of the modern courses that are discussed daily here in these halls are not catering to the LCD.

I know it's not easy staying on top of the newest courses. Perhaps you could re-phrase your question to allow for the newer breed of course. i.e. Greywalls, Ballyneal, Black Mesa, etc.

Sadly though there arre examples like Wild Horse, where the LCD has been given preference on the maintenance meld, almost emasculating the design intent and the playability that results in the more unpredictable fun a sportsman would cherish.

Glad you had fun recently. It's paramount to the sports survival. Don't you think?

[Ronald Montesano]

My high school team (the one I coach) played Wednesday in a powerful wind.  The front nine that we played has at least two holes each running n, s, e and w, forcing the golfers to allot for each unique influence.  As our eight teed off, it occurred to me that 25% of them, minimum, had no idea how to play the ball back and use a 3 pm - 9 pm swing to modify trajectory.  Wonderful laboratory moment.

The next day, we discussed putting.  It shocked them when I revealed that I am horizontally-challenged.  I venture that I am the worst reader of break in all of golf.  As such, my putting is all about measurement.  Knowing that the putt will travel the required distance typically leaves me within the 4 feet-diameter circle.  If I guess correctly, some putts fall.  I told the kids, leave yourselves tap-ins.  I'm sick of watching you mark after your first putt.  I would guess that a Greenskeeper's Revenge tournament might be just the thing to drive home this point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

Hole locations have nothing to do with the date the course was crafted, rather, it's become the culture of many clubs which choose to cater to the LCD by placing the hole in benign or bland locations ..... repetively.

[JNC Lyon]

I think golfers today will not tolerate extreme difficulty around the greens.  Steep greens and difficult hole locations are seen as unfair, mainly because they can be very difficult for good players.  However, courses that provide extreme difficult tee-to-green tests are seen as "good,tough tests," and "championship caliber."  These types of courses provide a definite advantage for the better player, even if they are borderline unplayable for the weaker player.

[Rob Rigg]

They do crazy stuff with the pins at Whisper Rock for an event once a year where I play a bunch (filthy lie) - it is really cool and different.

Pat - I think you are right, golf is fun, even repeatedly on the same course, but crazy pins or gnarle wind can provide a unique and challenging experience that livens up the marriage from time to time.

[astavrides]

Do any of the revenge hole locations you are talking about provide the possibility that a putt is going to head toward the hole and roll back to your feet if you miss it?  If so, I think that is unfair and has caused me to walk off a course.

[Dan Herrmann]

One of the best things, other than great course conditions aligning with the architect's intent, our new head greenkeeper started doing was using ALL pinnable locations on any given green.

It was like playing a course for the first time.

The practice has continued.  Members are happy, and the greens get more even wear.  Everybody wins.

[Adam Clayman]

Excessive green speeds cause benign pin positions. Who are the ones wanting 14 on the stimp? The LCD?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Excessive green speeds cause benign pin positions. Who are the ones wanting 14 on the stimp? The LCD?

Adam,

You'd be surprised as to who wants 14 on the stimp.

I think it's the mid to high handicap who sees it on TV and wants to import it to his course.

It's fun every now and then, but not as a steady diet or goal.

Increased speeds (12+) can only result in the disfiguration of wonderfully contoured/sloped greens, hence, I'm against them.

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