Golf in South America?

[Ran Morrissett]

I was watching a travel show on Uruguay ( or really I was watching Brook Burke   ) last night and was reminded of some amazing sketches of greens at Uruguay GC by MacKenzie that seemed chock full of character. Does much or any of MacKenzie's Uruguay GC still exist?

And more broadly, the travel show highlighted the obvious - that SA is blessed with thousands of miles of coastal property. While the SA economies have gone every which way over the past century, are there any real gems down there? Just how good are the two courses at The Jockey Club?

Are there any new projects that hold promise? Is this a potential new frontier for golf design?

[RJ_Daley]

Ran, although I didn't see that particular program, I was recently wondering about the same thing in relation to the long coast of Chile.  From pics I have seen, it is endless dunesland...

[John D. Bernhardt]

It is funny you guys brought SA and Chile up. A good friend has been trying to get me to travel down and see the sand dunes west of Santiago for 2 years. I have studied topos and demographics of the area and would love to chat about it to whoever is interested.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

There are many new courses around Santiago.  I was involved in the design of one in the dunes along the Pacific Ocean in La Serena; about one hour flight north of Santiago. It still has a lot of maturing before it is appropriate for coastal golf.  Too much grass, not enough native material and sand. Argentina has some new courses.  I am most familiar with Buenos Aires Golf Club because I was lead architect with von Hagge on that one.  They hosted World Cup that Tiger and Duval won. Never saw Jockey Club.  Worked on San Isidro which is a nice little club.  I also designed a course in Carmelo Uruguay that is nice. Madison Golf Club.  It is a part of a magnificent hotel, $500 to $700 a night hotel.  It looks like a museum.  The course is old-fashion in its appearence; but I will leave the evaluation of its design to others.  It is not my place here to be self-serving.  

Much of the difficulty with the development of courses in South America is the desire by locals to have a course that they can play.  A course designed to the abilities of the local people.  This is distressing because the courses should be designed to uplift the abilities of the locals, not dumb down to them.  The one in La Serena could have been a world gem, but it was compromised to meet local notions of fair play.

The clubs in South America are nice because most have few or no carts.  All have caddies.  The courses are generally on small tracts of land which make them very easy to walk.  And there is a quirky quality to some of the greens that make it interesting.  Most though have fallen into the trap of tree lining fairways as the only strategic defense for the tee shot.

Los Leones Golf Club in Santiago is an example of this.  It is a very nice old club; great superintendent, and they are upgrading the infrastructure of the course, and doing a good job of it.

South America is a wonderful place to travel.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran,
I was supposed to go down on business and I was going to see the Jockey Club.  Tom Doak mentioned to me that it was the one of the best kept original Mackenzie designs.  However, he said the property was flat and the condition was not perfect.  I did not end up going, but I plan to in the next year, so hopefully I can offer a report.

PS.  I bet Brooke Burke is more from the Nicklaus school (insert your own mounding joke)of design, very high on aesthetics though.
Merry Christmas

[Mike_Young]

KBM is right.  SA is a great place to travel.  I did some work in Brazil about 10 years ago at Sao Paulo Golf Club and found that Brazil is a very difficult place to work.  
There was a new Caterpillar factory manufacturing D6's down the street and shapers had to use 30 year old cable-driven machines because they were not allowed to sell the new ones in Brazil.  And as was mentioned earlier the club would modify as they saw fit when you were not on site so as to fit the Members or Green Chairmans game.  Brazil was a very difficult place to work.
BUT.... the good.... in a country with 160 million people and 60% of those under sixteen labor was cheap.  So, they would use 100 people to clear an acre by hand instead of one D7.   AND....the clubs had great service.  While the golf and conditions may not have been that much.  The SPGC had 2 fulltime barbers, 2 masseuses(sp??), quantities of wait staff and great food.  Course was irrigated with a wagon.
I saw some fantastic dunes land in a place called Florinopolis and Santa Catarina.  This was an Island several hundred miles below Rio with dunes over 125 ft high.  Problem is Brazilian Environmentalist are tougher than US.
Also got to see CC of Montivideo and Jockey Club.  Even have copy of some of the Greens scketchs from JC.
Great place to visit ; would not want to work there.
BUT... just finished one in Costa Rica that was a fantastic place to be www.haciendapinilla.com .  If anyone is ever down that way contact me and I will get you on the course for a  comp round.
Mike

Mike

[John_Conley]

Ran:

Wild On! is alright, but the making of her calendar is much better.  "Bathing Brooke", consult local listings.

[Keith Durrant]

In my World Atlas of Golf (1979 Reprint), it only includes 2 SA courses:

The Jockey Club, Argentina (Mackenzie)
Lagunita, Columbia (Dick Wilson)

Are there any new entries in the present version? What courses should be added, perhaps?

[Jim Nugent]

Brooke Burke.  Ahhh.  Fantasy come to life.  She is the fifth in my dream fivesome.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Nicklaus has 2 open courses in South America exclusive of Mexico:

Argentina: www.chapelco.com

Colombia: www.ruitoquegolf.com

Other courses are planned in Brazil and Argentina

[Tom_Doak]

I have visited The Jockey Club and GC of Uruguay when I was working on the MacKenzie biography.

The Jockey Club is very interesting, very well preserved MacKenzie design.  The land was dead flat and he built some big mounds for green and bunker settings and some big swales for drainage, and then they planted trees in between all the holes but not really in play.  The effect is sort of like a giant bumper-pool table [my brother's analogy and a good one], but the surface is all common bermuda, so it's not a fast table.  6 on the Doak scale; it's not worth flying to Buenos Aires for it, but you should definitely see it if you're there.

GC del Uruguay was disappointing, though it is right in the city of Montevideo.  I've seen the green sketches to which Ran referred, but unfortunately they rebuilt all of the greens about 15 years ago and took out any severe contouring in the process, now they're just slightly tilted.  The land has a bit of slope to it but there isn't any part of it which I would describe as dramatic, and the bunkers are simple rounded-off shapes ... I didn't see any pictures as to whether it used to be more elaborate, but remember this was Luther Koontz carrying out the doctor's work, not Morcom or Fleming or Perry Maxwell.  Only a 4 or 5.

Cantegril in Punta del Este was a very cool club laid out by Koontz ... there is a bit of MacKenzie influence there, but no documentation whether he had anything to do with the layout, it was likely Koontz on his own.  5 on my scale.

Hopefully I will have a chance to get back down there sooner rather than later ... one of my associates is in Argentina this weekend looking at a site for our client without a country!

[Lou_Duran]

JC- Red is a very good course on an uninteresting site.  Nice green complexes, though the bunkering was not memorable.  Good routing and flow of holes.  Relatively short and maintained more to a U.S. muni standard than the rich CC it once was.  I suspect that the soil is poor and Argentina has been having a rough time economically for a number or years.

The day I was there the course played relatively fast.  I could be mistaken, but the greens seemed to be grassed with an early bermuda hybrid, perhaps a tifdwarf.  They seemed to roll too well for common bermuda.

Concur with Tom Doak's rating.  When in Buenos Aires with five to six hours to spare, it is well worth the visit.  The members seemed to be exceptionally welcoming.

[Evan_Green]

Has anyone seen Gavea in Brazil?

I remember seeing some interesting pictures of that course. I am not sure how good it is. I think its a pretty short, but sporty and scenic course.

[Mike_Young]

Evan,
I spent some time at Gavea in the early 90's.  As with many clubs there it is great club facility due to service labor but lacking in design and maintenance.  There was a Shell WWofG match there between Mario Gonzales and Roberto Devecenzo(I think it was RD).  Course is short and full of monkeys.

[Jeff_Lewis]

I think you are selling Gavea a bit short.  The 13 holes on the mountain, where Stanley Thompson dealt with ravines and the sort of terrain he found near Toronto, are quite good. The 5 holes by the water are somewhat reminiscent of Doral and in that respect, forgettable.

Jockey is interesting, but the maintenance practices have shrouded some of the good Doctor's work. Tree removal and green reclaimation are both required for the course to reassert itself.  Olivos, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, was quite a revelation. A terrific variety of green complexes, wide corridors throught mature trees. An excellent stop if you are in B.A. The BA Club, where the WGC event was won by Duval and Woods is pretty forgettable.

[Christoph Meister]

I have visited The Jockey Club and GC of Uruguay when I was working on the MacKenzie biography.

GC del Uruguay was disappointing, though it is right in the city of Montevideo.  I've seen the green sketches to which Ran referred, but unfortunately they rebuilt all of the greens about 15 years ago and took out any severe contouring in the process, now they're just slightly tilted.  The land has a bit of slope to it but there isn't any part of it which I would describe as dramatic, and the bunkers are simple rounded-off shapes ... I didn't see any pictures as to whether it used to be more elaborate, but remember this was Luther Koontz carrying out the doctor's work, not Morcom or Fleming or Perry Maxwell.  Only a 4 or 5.

Tom,

I recently bought some copies of Golfer argentino from the 1930s and found some picture of GC of Uruguay which I'll post in a different topic called Club de Golf del Uruguay - maybe you have some pictures from your visit so that we could compare before and afterwards - if not you might just like to watch the pictures I found...

Christoph

[Neil_Crafter]

Christoph
That's great and look forward to seeing those old pics.
Neil