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Kirk Gill

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Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2009, 09:41:56 PM »
Ok, I see what you're talking about. Purpose-built tee mounds for the purpose of having an elevated tee.

From the pic, certainly not a "template" I'd necessarily like to see repeated !
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2009, 09:46:42 PM »
Please. I'll call b.s. on this one, unless you can provide me with examples of doing this. Just because an architect acknowledges the existence of carts, or even is willing to try to maximize the experience for the cart golfer doesn't mean he'd want to create obstacles specifically to prevent walking golfers from enjoying their experience. I've played a few of these courses, and I haven't seen it.

Kirk,  While it sounds like Engh  may have moved away from this somewhat at Pradera and newer courses, I think that, like many modern architects, Engh's general approach and preferences necessarily create obstacles and hardships for the walking golfer.  

-  Elevated tees.  At Black Rock he demonstrates a strong preference for elevated tees, and from pictures and descriptions of his other courses, this is not limited to Black Rock.   A strong preference for elevated tees often means uphill hikes for the walking golfer.   Elevated tees may also mean longer walks between holes, because the architect needs to find an elevated tee.  And it means the kind of tees Garland points out.

-  Trough Fairways.   Engh has a general preference for concave fairways, which means the walking golfer has to climb down into them.   While this may not seem like much of a chore, it gets old, and at Black Rock there is no often no easy way in except to walk down the path More importantly the walker eventually has to get back out . . .

-  Bowled green sites.    At Black Rock even climbing in and out of them or walking around them was work, as sometimes they were quite steep and a large majority of the holes were bowled.   While they may not be quite as common on the newer courses, they are apparently still part of his repertoire, with six at Pradera, according to Engh.  

- Finding "Inspiring" Holes.   As Engh says, he is not going to give up a chance at creating another inspiring hole for the sake of preserving walkability.   The corollary is that sometimes going the extra mile for the inspiring hole may making walking much more difficult or even impossible.   A good example of this is at Black Rock, where the course takes a substantial out of the way trek at the beginning of the back nine, dipping over the top of the ridge and down below the rocks for a few holes before climbing back over.  Most would characterize this as the inspiring part of the course, but it feels a bit disconnected from the rest, and it certainly isn't conducive to walking.  

- "The Golf Cart-Path Experience."   While many of the above go hand and hand with the "golf cart-path experience," designing for the cart-baller makes it easy to exaggerate all of the above.  A high path and a low course makes for nice views of the course and the surrounds, thus creating an added bonus for high tees and relative concavity, and making the walk more difficult.

- Unwalkable terrain and Carries.  Like many others, Engh seems to like to have the golfer hit over things like lakes, canyons, native or other unwalkable features.  This means the walker has to go around.  

- Housing.  Not an issue solely for Engh, but courses that incorporate housing are generally tough on walkers.   More distance between holes, and much of the higher land goes to the house.  Not sure how this impacts Engh as he apparently prefers the troughs anyway.

I'll post a few pics of the kinds of things I am talking about below.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:54:15 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2009, 10:22:36 PM »
Here are the front nine Par threes at Black Rock from BR's website.  
- The walk to the next hole on all three is generally on the cart path side.  Look at the hike necessary just to  to get out of each of these holes!
- Note that all three require carries over something impassable for the walker, necessitating a walk around.







A few more from BR.  

The 8th, one of three or four holes at BR with the same essential "strategy," a question marked shaped hole where the long hitter can play directly over the trouble but the shorter hitter must go around.   These holes are always popular with macho men like Matt, who can reach the green in two while watching the worse golfer with a narrow layup and awkward shot over trouble for a third.   In reality, these holes play much shorter for the big hitter than the yardage because they are measured around the dogleg, but I doubt these guys think of this when they reminisce about their huge drives and short irons in.   Not my favorite concept for a hole but I am sure some like it.    But three or four on a course?   Seems like overkill to me.

More to the point of this thread, note the climb out, with the next tee to the left.  One cannot see the large bank all along the right side.



Here is the last hole, note the sunken fairway and green, and the hike out to the left.



There is much more, but this should give you an idea of how this approach to golf design necessarily places obstacles in front of the walker.  

It also gives a few snapshots of the course Matt claims was designed for walking and a reasonable walking course (no worse than Bethpage Black) only I haven't shown the treks between holes.  

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:34:35 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2009, 10:38:50 PM »
Jay, don't get me wrong, I love Hawktree.  I just don't love to walk it.  Really, one other problem is when everyone else is in a cart, the walkers don't "blend"very well.  Lots of up and down on the property, with elevation changes.  Also, Some distance between tees and greens.  I am now noticing more of the "bowl" shaped greens, and not just the par 3s. 

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2009, 03:35:35 AM »
Greg Rowley looks like a nice guy...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2009, 01:24:35 PM »
Bill, 

That is a very fun and generous challenge!  Maybe too generous.   I might try it myself except I am not sure I could consistently break 90 there even with a cart.    I'd guess Matt Ward will be all over it, although I am not sure if he ever plays without hitting multiple extra shots and then taking his pick.   You don't pay for indivuduals playing their own 'scramble' do you? 

As for the rest of your post, I hope you are correct and time will tell.   According to some he may be moving in the right direction (in my opinion) with a course like Four Mile, and he has said that the Nebraska course will be designed to be walkable.    Wasn't there a delay and ownership change on that project?   I hope whoever is in charge now still wants a walking course.   

I've always thought that most designers would be better off with a much more constrained budget so they would be forced to actually learn to deal with the land as it is, rather than having free hand to substitute their own "creativity" over nature's creativity.   Maybe Engh has long been cursed with too much of a free hand and a tighter market will be good for him.

[One side note, I recall that at least earlier in the decade Engh marketed himself as being very cost efficient (and may still for all I know) but I assume that this was relative to the types of projects he was doing.]

Again, that is an amazingly generous challenge.   I have to admit, though, that even I think your money might not be safe.  I can see some scratch golfer in very good shape playing as a single and managing to break 90 in the allotted time.  (After all you are giving them three extra hours over what it would take on a reasonably walkable layout.    But I guess that wouldn't be such a bad thing; some deserving charity would get a grand.  And the course would still be obviously unwalkable to all but the most biased observers.   Like Matt Ward.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matt_Ward

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2009, 07:03:09 PM »
Bill S:

We agree to disagree on BB versus Black Rock / re: walkability.

Head to LI on a mid-July day with temps in the 90's and humidity matching it -- get a course like BB which routinely beats on golfers relentlessly and then throw into the equation the march up and down the demanding Manetto Hills and the long walks to the tip tees and the day is a tough one for all but the strongest.

Curious to know -- but if you have not walked BB then your statement about my statement being the most "inaccurate" is truly off base on your part. Best of luck with your wager.

David M:

I love your qualifiers on Four Mile Ranch -- "may be moving in the right direction (in my opinion)" -- got news for you it's already there and simply doesn't have the fanfare / attention that goes to places like Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon. Engh excelled there in a range of ways --  cost to play (kudos to management), walkability, playability, challenge and overall scenic beauty -- onsite and offsite. The whole package. Of course, how would I know? I've played it -- in fact, more than once.






Andy Troeger

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2009, 08:51:46 PM »
One thing I found interesting about all those drawings from Black Rock is that it appears all those greens are benched into larger and presumably natural hillsides--getting the rest of the way up the hills doesn't help for walking either but its not like they were "created."

Bill,
Given that I understand you walk pretty much every round, I'm going to figure that if you couldn't walk it that I probably couldn't either so I'll retract my original statement. If I get back up there I may try your offer, but only if someone playing with me is riding to carry me away when I inevitably give up  :D 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2009, 09:57:51 PM »
Come on, Matt.  At least Bill tried to walk Black Rock.   Your opinion on its supposed walkability based on observations from the seat of a cushy cart.  If it was so walkable, then why didn't you get off your ass and walk it?  And the members say that, as far as they know, NO ONE HAS EVER SUCCESSFULLY WALKED IT.   Yet you still stick to your absurd conclusion.  Arrogance run amuck, even for you.  

I've walked Bethpage Black in the heat and humidity of summer, and I walked some of my round at Black Rock (with my clubs in a cart) and there is really no comparison.   BR is not not made for walking.   There is no way I could have come close to keeping up with my group had I tried to walk, and these were by no means fast golfers.    Any course is challenging to walk in the heat and humidity but BB was built for walking and that makes all the difference.  

Quote
Curious to know -- but if you have not walked BB then your statement about my statement being the most "inaccurate" is truly off base on your part. Best of luck with your wager.

Given that you have never walked Black Rock, is your pronouncement equally off base?  I am sure you don't think so.   Like I said, arrogance run amuck.

Quote
I love your qualifiers on Four Mile Ranch -- "may be moving in the right direction (in my opinion)" -- got news for you it's already there and simply doesn't have the fanfare / attention that goes to places like Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon. Engh excelled there in a range of ways --  cost to play (kudos to management), walkability, playability, challenge and overall scenic beauty -- onsite and offsite. The whole package. Of course, how would I know? I've played it -- in fact, more than once.

You are something, Matt.  I say that Four Mile sounds interesting and you go off on that too?  I don't give a damn how many times you've played it. Given how slanted your reviews are, I'll wait to see it myself before I draw any conclusions.    But I have a life, so who knows when that will be.

Which reminds me, Matt, other than your indignation you never answered my question about these crazy and frequent trips of yours.   Do you or have you worked for a P.R. Firm?  One that deals in anything golf?

And what are you paying for when you do these trips?   For example, you recently did a review of a Norman Course and said you stayed there for two days.    Who paid for that?   Who paid for your golf while you were there, and your meals and travel for that matter?   '

I ask because your "reviews" become puffier and puffier by the day.  

_______________________________________________
One thing I found interesting about all those drawings from Black Rock is that it appears all those greens are benched into larger and presumably natural hillsides--getting the rest of the way up the hills doesn't help for walking either but its not like they were "created."

Generally true but sometimes only because of how much earth has apparently removed when digging the fairway trough and green hole.   I believe this is the case on 18, for example.    Plus, some of the mounding behind the holes is not natural at least in part.  I recall a green located right on what was a canyon, with the green and berm acting as a sort of dam.  It may have even been Hole 8, with the false berm extending right from the natural ridge, across the canyon, with the elevated cart path running across the top.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:11:41 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Andy Troeger

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2009, 12:14:35 AM »
David,
I thought I remembered the clubhouse being located higher than the majority of the 18th hole, being relatively level with the green. The fairway sits down in a hollow, so presumably one would always have had to walk uphill to get "home." Obviously the landforms in many cases have been significantly shaped--I don't think there's any intent to make them look natural. The hole that appeared "built-up" the most to me was the 6th which you didn't mention.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2009, 01:46:26 AM »
I agree that the top of the bowl at 18 green was at clubhouse level, or very slightly lower.  My most vivid memory of the hole (and maybe the course) was descending down to that green, knowing I had to climb up again, thinking what a perfectly appropriate finish.

You may be right about six.   It's been something like six years so I sometimes have trouble remembering which bowl goes with which hole.     
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matt_Ward

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2009, 01:52:59 AM »
David M:

I can always count on you personalizing your responses.

Thanks for telling me about what BB is about -- was it from a one time visit I imagine -- just like your personally understanding Engh courses from having played just one of his layouts.

In regards to Black Rock - I played 30 holes in one day and actually walked a good bit of the course the second go round - my clubs were in a cart that another person was driving so technically I didn't have them on my shoulder for the ones I did walk. I'd be happy to test out the argument should I return to Black Rock. I have my opinion on the matter and should I return to Black Rock be happy to test it out and say so -- if I'm right or wrong.

David, let's be very clear here shall we -- you go forward with a conclusion -- that FMR "may be moving in the right direction (in my opinion)" -- that's from your mouth -- not mine or anyone else's. Really. I see -- this from the guy who's played the grand total of one Engh course and has the gumption to pronounce my opinion on the course as all wet. Maybe youi should read what others have written on FMR -- some of them post here on this site. Of course, how could anyone but David M know what quality design is about? Let the folks who have played FMR tell you that my take on the course is totally "slanted" as you previously said.

In regards to your insulting presumption that I have no life as you clearly stated that you do -- frankly you once again decide to subsitute mud instead of dialogue. I do plenty of things in my life that matter to me -- I love golf and have put aside critical time to see / play those courses that fascinate me. I am extremely active in my community on a range of fronts and it takes considerable effort for me to allocate the kind of time for the visits to places I am interested in seeing. You again take the low road with your insulting comment that such trips that I take are "crazy" and "frequent." Geeze, thank you for telling me I'm nuts for wanting to play golf and for seeing firsthand the kind of architecture that inspires my love for the game even more. I would think others would also want to take such "crazy" trips and have them as "frequent" as possible.

I pay for my travel to the locations involved (air, car, bike, etc, etc) --  if I'm assigned to do an article for a publication they may pick up the tab for me in such situations. Do I receive complimentary golf at times? Sure, sometimes but not always. This is no different than various raters and media people and others who receive likewise. In regards to lodging and meals the same thing applies -- in some cases I receive it complimentary -- in other cases I pay whatever the going rate is or the publication(s) I am working with may do so. If people believe my take on a course is impacted by this -- they are free to believe what they wish.

Yes, I have worked with PR firms previously but at no time have I been engaged in being employed at the same time with both PR and editorial functions. -- simple as that.

My desire to play the courses in question comes from my deep interest to sample what is being designed and when opportunity arises I try to provide a review of such courses(s) to different publications from which I have worked with or those considering using my stuff.

David, if you don't like what I write -- ignore it. However, geting into the gutter seems to be a route that you now favor. You say my reviews on courses is puff and more puff. Fine. Your opinion. I have stated various deficiencies in my mind on a range of courses and architects -- including Jim Engh, Rees Jones, Tom Doak, Jack Nicklaus and others. I simply outline what I like and don't like. You are free to say what you want -- even if it only comes from the seat in front of your computer.

It's been fun -- shall I say that -- in going through this back and forth with you -- but frankly the low level attacks are not worth the time and effort it takes to respond. Please forgive me in believing that I thought you were a classy fellow who had a particular focus on golf architecture -- one at times I found interesting even if I didn't completely agree with it . Clearly it was my mistake to believe such a connection.

Enjoy ...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2009, 02:42:27 AM »
Matt

You constantly lecture us that we must see this and that and here and there..  For most of us, it is not a realistic option because we have lives other than golf.  That doesn't mean we are stupid or that our opinions are invalid.  You try to use your travels as a trump, but unless you view what you see objectively and really strive to really understand what you are seeing then what is the point?

Take Engh.  My original review of BR was spot on and not just for BR.   Turns out that while I disagree with the quality, I have understood Engh's approach to design aall along.  You on the other hand have been fighting and denying and misrepresenting and apparently you never had a clue what the guy was about.  15 courses and you never figured out the guy had a strong preference for containment?  Do you play blindfolded?  And now you have the nerve to praise him for moving away from the very things you have been denying?  I guess that is what a PR guy does.

As for the rest it makes me a bit ill.  You are staying eating and playing on these guys dimes and then coming on these boards and reviewing these courses?   You are working PR in the golf industry yet still coming on here and presenting yourself as an unbiased observer?  

Don't bother to say it doesn't impact your opinion.   If it wasn't an issue you'd have been disclosing this payola with every review.  And do you suppose you'd get these gigs if you started truthfully trashing them?

Ironic you accuse me of getting in the gutter.  I'm not the one living it up on some fancy development's dime and then offering my 'objective' opinions.  No wonder every other fancy development course you play is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Perhaps your tagline should read:

THE ABOVE BY MATT WARD WAS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
      
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 02:53:29 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2009, 02:48:44 AM »
...
Thanks for telling me about what BB is about -- was it from a one time visit I imagine -- just like your personally understanding Engh courses from having played just one of his layouts.
...

Well, let see Matt, the members of Black Rock say David nailed it on one visit, but you can't seem to get it right with however many visits you have made. Reminds me of something your dad used to say.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Troeger

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2009, 05:51:10 PM »
...
Thanks for telling me about what BB is about -- was it from a one time visit I imagine -- just like your personally understanding Engh courses from having played just one of his layouts.
...

Well, let see Matt, the members of Black Rock say David nailed it on one visit, but you can't seem to get it right with however many visits you have made. Reminds me of something your dad used to say.


Although I understand you're referring to walking, something tells me most of the members at Black Rock like the place a little better than David in just about every other aspect  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2009, 09:16:26 PM »
Although I understand you're referring to walking, something tells me most of the members at Black Rock like the place a little better than David in just about every other aspect  ;)

Andy,

No doubt about that.  But at least with them I have some common ground;  We agree that it is not reasonably walkable.  Neither of us is pretending the course is something that it is not

What has kept me going with these Engh arguments is NOT a difference in opinion, but rather a difference in understanding of what actually exists.  The continued argument that BR is reasonably walkable is an example, as is the constant and repeated denial of Engh's general preference for concavity and containment.   You can like it or dislike hs work, but it is insulting to even Jim Engh to pretend he is something that he isn't.  I wish we could get beyond this and to a discussion of his actual appraoch, rather than argue about what it is.

Why do you suppose that this is?   Why are so many trying to deny what seems to be pretty obvious about his work? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Andy Troeger

Re: Jim Engh par three amphitheater template?
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2009, 10:30:57 PM »
David,
I'm not going to answer for the others--I haven't denied the concave/containment nature of the design. #18 is appropriate in the sense that it matches the rest of the course--Engh has a style and sticks to it pretty well. I don't think I've ever heard someone describe a hole on any of his courses as being "out of place." I think he also describes it pretty well in his comments and states his philosophy better than I could, but I enjoy what he creates. Its not without flaws especially in terms of getting repetitive at times, but I'd be happy to see any of his courses a second time. To be honest, that matters more to me (even though its subjective) than any specifics relative to the design.