How small an area can qualify as pinnable?

[Scott Warren]

Is there an area that is widely considered the smallest sensible amount of space required for an area of putting green to be pinnable?

I came across this pin on the 3rd at Woking recently and it's certainly the wildest pin placement I have seen in a long while, if not ever. That back tier would be lucky to be eight-feet wide! As it was, I got lucky and thinned a wedge to pin high!

[Pat Brockwell]

The mower's cleanup pass is almost six feet, it looks like there is at least another 12 feet before it drops off, I vote yes, this is OK, and brilliant.

[Scott Warren]

Oh, I loved this one, but it's not as generous as it looks. About four feet short of where my ball is sitting, I dropped a ball and it rolled down the hill, settling about 40ft from the hole!

[Andrew Summerell]

It a pretty interesting hole all round. You do have a little bit of a back stop behind the green

[Pat Brockwell]

It looks like something you'd see on a Doak, bitch.

[Scott Warren]

I actually read that Tom copied was inspired by this green for one of the greensites at Pacific Dunes.

[Cristian]

Does the back-stop feed balls back to the green or does it just stop them? (it's hard to exactly make out the grade of the backstop and the length of the grass in the picture). If the answer is yes, I don't mind one or two of these a round.

[Bill_McBride]

I actually read that Tom copied was inspired by this green for one of the greensites at Pacific Dunes.

Maybe that diabolical back right corner of #3 at Pacific Dunes?

Old guys in San Francisco will remember the back right pin at the original #18 at Half Moon Bay as being about as big as your bathroom! 

[Carl Johnson]

What's meant by "pinnable (or is it pinable?)?"  First thing -- ease of hitting your approach shot close for a birdie try?  Second thing -- ease of getting close eough on your approach to get your first putt close?  (All of this assuming two putts to a par.)  I'd opt for the second, but who knows.  In other words, I'd say it's pinnable if a scratch player could position his or her approach within a reasonable distance to make a par, with long, but not impossible odds, of getting it close enough for a reasonable birdie try.

[Tom_Doak]

The answer to your question is that it depends on what is around that area.

[TEPaul]

I don't think there is any "standardized" definition for what constitutes "pinnable area" or even what constitutes a "separate" pinnable area (as in some sort of definable area between one "pinnable area" and another "pinnable area."

This is a question, however, I have been looking for an answer to for some years particularly when I hear that the USGA, for instance, in some championship, is looking for five or at least four "separate pinnable areas" for each green during a championship week.

[Kalen Braley]

One would hope at a bare minimum you have at least 100 sq feet to work with, and even thats not much. 

[TEPaul]

"The answer to your question is that it depends on what is around that area."


TomD:

I think part of the problem to the answer to this question of it depends on what is around that area, according to whom? 

[paul cowley]

Having worked with USGA officials with pin and green setup, they typically want a pin to be at least 3 paces [9'] from the edge of the green and/or 9' from an internal green slope that's greater than 3%.
So the minimum area described for a pin would be in the center of an 18' circle whose surface meets these requirements.

Based on this, the USGA would be looking for five seperate areas where the pins are at least 36' away from each other.

But this is something they would like to see in a perfect design world....and something that is much harder to achieve in reality.

 

 

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Very interesting and it makes sense. You're right though, in the real world it is sometimes hard to achieve obviously depending on the effects of greenspeed to some extent. There are a couple of greens at Merion that they claim have far less than 10% total green space on them that is 3% or less.

[Mark Luckhardt]

The finer US Open venues rarely have 18' radius for these"regulation pin placements", Merion of  course, and on three greens at Oakmont those pinnable areas on greens really don't even exist.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Scott,
Your photo could be of our first green. It works fine for our purposes.

We have one that I really enjoy on our par 3 8th that has a very mildly concaved area in the middle of a downslope. It's about 6' across and at our speeds it's very practical to locate a cup in the middle of it. Again, it works for us.

[Bruce Leland]

Personally, I think the hole location in the photo is acceptable as "pinnable".  It appears to be a relatively smallish green with a significant front tier that would hold most shots or allow the player the ability to "skip" a shot to the back of the green with a backboard to funnel slightly strong running shots back to the top tier. 

I haven't played the hole in question so I'm not acquainted with what yardage a typical second shot is played from.  Could it be that the perimeter of the upper tier has been diminished a bit over the years due maintenance practices?  Doesn't look like there was much more level surface back there from the photo.

[Davis Wildman]

For the fun of it, here's an example of a green's contour and slope analysis map of an existing green surface...enjoy!

[Mike Hendren]

Doak's team did a fantastic job recapturing the full green pads at Raynor's Blue Mound in Milwaukee.  I have never seen so many pinnable spots on the periphery of a set of greens in my life.  If you go there, check out the extreme front right corner of the 9th green.  There's a micro-plateau there that's probably 20' x 20' feet where I'd love to see a pin.  I didn't see any backfilled cups there, but otherwise had a blast roaming the greens to where where pins had been recently cut.

Mike

[Davis Wildman]

Well, I posted the previous green's slope/contour map hoping to generate some discussion and offer it as an example of what can be done with regard to analyzing green pin placement...forgive me but I'm a tech-head   I always find it interesting looking at a green from an analytical perspective as well as trying to read it with my eyes only.

This new map is of the same green, but with a 7' buffer...not the 3 paces or 9' that Paul mentioned the USGA spec's, but this was what the Superintendent of the course asked for.  He also asked to see 2' spacing across the 2.5% or less slope so he could identify all possible pin locations.

Total green area is 4493 sq.ft.  The 7' buffer reduces it to 3000 sq.ft.  There is about 1500 sq.ft of green surface at 2.5% or less...so this represents the pinable area potential. 

18' diameter circle around the pin equals 254 sq.ft.  Dividing the 1500 sq.ft of pinable area at 2.5% or less slope by the 18' circle rule provides 6 pin locations without considering the need for each cup to be 36' from one another.   

This particular green is about 28 years old and never renovated and the turf wear/tear was very obvious...members tied of playing the same pin locations; well worn entry/exit points around the green.

Anyone else in the group find this kind of analysis interesting??

[Davis Wildman]

Shiv,

 "everyday they put a pin...at Erin Hills, don't they"...will you explain? 

Glad you like the maps...I find it fascinating to see what is really there.

[John Foley]

Hope not to thread-jack a great discussion (Davis - love the maps too) and bring up the M word....

What about the front section of #17 @ Merion East? I do not beleive it is used, but that would be a great location.

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