[John Moore II]

John,
Your 2 1/2 par hole doesn't exacting sound exciting to play   

You could make it interesting. Would you consider the 7th at Pebble interesting? Assume its relocated to a place that has no wind at all. Would you say that a hole that short playing downhill would be a par 2 1/2 and still be interesting??

Even have a very wild green with some flat spots. Even a green with 4 or 5 unique tiers would be cool.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Pebble's 7th is not a 2 1/2 par golf hole wind or no wind.  Far far more bogies and others are made on that hole than birdies even when there is not a breath of wind.  I think people forget that the average tour pro only gets up and down (from a few yards off the green) about 60% of the time.  So that means if you designed a hole that was say 20 yards long, it just might meet your criteria as a 2 1/2 par hole. 

Again, my point is that people are hung up on length in their definition of 1/2 par holes.  Maybe it is just a choice of words but I've never liked the term half par golf holes and I've never written such a score on my card.
Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

How can there be too many half par holes when the concept of "par" is a method of scoring?  I know folks give "par" credit for all sorts of mind games, but those games are just that, in their minds.  IMO there is entirely too much talk about half par holes - its on the list right next to bunkers.  Holes are what they are.  Expectations of success or failure in relation to par is irrelevant for nearly all golfers so why worry so much about it?

Ciao     

I only partly agree Sean... Someone who plays a course and considers that it may have too many "half-par" holes is likely just saying that there is too little variety in hole length... Like saying there are too many long hard par-4's... Whilst not necessarily framing their concern in the right language, the underlying problem may be the same...

[Doug Siebert]

Mark,

I don't think anyone is claiming that a half par hole is one where you would ever write that down on your scorecard (how do you take half a stroke, after all?)  I think the concept is pretty clear, its a hole where if you play it properly you have an equal chance of making a par or one less (or more) than par.  That's not to say that a short 4 "half par" hole that you think of as a par 3 1/2 is one where you actually AVERAGE 3 1/2 strokes.  One or more poorly played shots on some occasions when you play the hole, or tougher conditions will serve to increase one's average.

Half par holes are typically those where because you can reach the green in one or two shots if very well played (i.e., a driveable par 4 or long 3 that's a near driver, or a reachable par 5 or nearly unreachable par 4)  Therefore if you are playing well you'd probably have a lot of little chips and pitches where which side of the "half par" equation you fall depends on your short game and putting on that day.  Its like a single digit handicap who drives it 300 yards playing a 5500 yard course that's wide open enough that he can play driver.  There are going to be a lot of half par holes for him on that course, too many IMHO.  You want some of them, but not a majority of the holes you play.

[Shawn Arlia]

The key to half par holes is the strategy. The best kind are those where a particular strategy or aggressive play gains an opportunity to save a stroke. Also, half pars should be in my opinion half pars when you can make a birdie vs a par. Who wants to play a long unreachable par four. (4 1/2) Whats so fun about that.

[Doug Siebert]

Shawn, I guess you should stay away from most of GB&I then, because there are many many par 4s that become unreachable when the wind is up.  On many courses you are just about guaranteed to have one or two, a 450 yard hole might be driver/half wedge one day and unreachable with two of your best shots on the next.

[Ken Moum]

Shawn, I guess you should stay away from most of GB&I then, because there are many many par 4s that become unreachable when the wind is up.  On many courses you are just about guaranteed to have one or two, a 450 yard hole might be driver/half wedge one day and unreachable with two of your best shots on the next.

Or a hole like Foxy at Royal Dornoch, that'sbasically impossible for a normal human to get on in two in any conditions. It's "reachable" but I can't figure out how someone like me would ever get a ball to stay on the green. Of course, the guys who hit it 300 yards are only going to have a wedge in, as opposed to my fairway wood.

That five to ten-foot bank you have to surmount is pretty daunting, as is the shallow green:

[Shawn Arlia]

Doug. The problem with the long 4.5 par four is not that it is unreachable with your second. but that the architect rarely places strategy into the the second shot in terms that a 40-70 yard pitch from a particular area is the desired leave if you cant reach it in two. Thus, these type of long par fours are just long slogs that arent much fun to play. So my opinion is this. If you are going to have a par four that may be unreachable in two, then place some strategy into what type of third shot is best. (angle, contours, etc)

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