[TEPaul]

"TEP
I hope you are joking. You obviously disagree with David's conclusions, and that's fine, but comparing it to Tolhurst is like comparing a 3rd grade paper to a college theseus. The level of research and scholarship is night and day. David explores areas that Tolhurst never knew or never could hope to know, for example the history of the land purchase. Tolhurst's knowledge of golf architecture is basic, and that is putting it kindly. And I don't know how Desmund didn't get sued by Heilman for plagiarism. David's writing is far superior as well. Other than that I think Tolhurst did a pretty good job.

I'd be surprised if one person on GCA agreed with you.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 06:50:33 PM by Tom MacWood"   



The purpose of this thread is for us on Golfclubatlas and elsewhere to consider and discuss the differences, benefits, drawbacks etc of approach, access and presentation of golf club and golf course architecture histories and the dissemination of historical information about golf clubs and courses. Obviously the world of information collection, analysis and dissemination has changed dramatically between 1989 (publication of Merion’s Tolhurst history book “Golf at Merion.”) and 2008 and 2009 (Golfclubatlas.com’s “The Missing Faces of Merion” In My Opinion essay).



The remarks quoted at the top of this post are the opinions (Golfclubatlas.com, “Merion Timeline” thread, post #3112) of a well-known GOLFCLUBALTAS.com (Internet website) self professed golf architecture researcher, writer, historian (Tom MacWood).

The “Tolhurst” referred to in his remarks above is Desmond Tolhurst, the professional golf writer Merion G.C. enlisted to produce Merion G.C’s 1989 “Golf at Merion,” the second of three club history books Merion G.C. has at present (2009).

The “David” referred to in post #3112 remarks is David Moriarty, a registered member of Golfclubatlas.com who is also apparently a self professed golf architecture researcher, writer, historian. In 2008 his essay entitled “The Missing Faces of Merion” was included in the “In My Opinion” section of Golfclubatlas.com.



There is an awful lot to consider with these vast  and dramatic changes in information collection, analysis and dissemination; a lot to consider from the perspective of golf clubs, from interested readers and researchers, and even including from the perspective of those who own and control information dissemination entities (Internet websites, golf clubs, book publishing companies and their researchers, writers etc).

There are probably issues of privacy, access, expectations of historical accuracy or lack of it, information or editorial review etc to be fleshed out in various ways in the future.

There is also a lot to add to this thread regarding both Tolhurst’s Merion history book (1989 and its 2005 readdition) and Moriarty’s “The Missing Faces of Merion” such as their individual “acknowledgements” etc that explain the nature of their information collection and analysis.

Golf Club and Course Histories, then and now !?. Where do we (clubs, researchers, writers, historians and interested readers) go from here and into the future? Will the old modus operandi or even etiquettes of contact, access and collaboration between subject and researcher/writer go by the wayside of progress, technological and otherwise, and ultimately what will readers expect or perhaps demand in the future?

[TEPaul]

Edited off on the apparent suggestion of #2 and #4 so as not to divert thread subject

[Jim_Kennedy]

You almost had something interesting going Tom, but you sure spoiled it quickly by turning it into a spellchecker lesson.

Too bad.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

Merely a notation as a fairly good number of the participants on this website seem quite fixated on words and terms, their meaning and interpretations and we certainly can see that many, many posts and pages have been used in those diversionary discussions and debates that seem (to me at least) pretty trivial and inconsequential.

Consequently, I thought that word should be mentioned right up front if it was some mistaken use or spelling. If Tom MacWood meant Theseus rather than thesis, for some reason, he will very likely say so or just mention it was a spelling error.

The "spellchecker post" as you call it, definitely isn't as important as the thread's first post but if the participants on here want to make it so or do make it so, that probably wouldn't surprise me at all. But hopefully most will only consider the first post and the spelling and meaning of the words reflected in the second one can be quickly resolved.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm sure you've talked yourself into believing that your second post isn't a spiteful bit of penmanship.

[TEPaul]

Well, then in the interest of preserving and not diverting this thread subject I'll remove it.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

When one picks up a history of a golf club, what do you expect to find? Often it isn't what you will see between the pages of the book you hold. That is because a club history is very different from a course history.

For example, If you've ever seen the Baltusrol club history you will find that the majority of the book is divided between a history of all the courses used from opening day until now and a recounting of all the major and national championships that have been held there. Information about the social aspects of the club are minimal. On the other hand, other clubs history books contain far less information about their golf course and events held there and far more on the events that have bound their "community" together over the years.

Why are they so different? Several reasons ranging from the nature of the course and who designed it to the events held there to the people who've enjoyed being members and even the makeup of the committee assigned to create the book itself. Whatever is between its pages is the result of labors of love by caring members.

Often times, because of the nature of how these history books come into being, the research may be lacking. This can lead to mistakes in important events and understanding of how the golf course itself evolved over the years. Many clubs desire help today in discovering their forgotten pasts and seek researchers who can aid them in this effort.

There is much invovled in this relationship between club and researcher/author, and I'll add more to this later...

[TEPaul]

"There is much invovled in this relationship between club and researcher/author, and I'll add more to this later..."


Phil, thanks, I wish you would add more later. Please answer this for me----have you ever seen a decent history of a course by a researcher/author who essentially has or had no relationship with his subject's club?

[JC Jones]

Does Shackelford count?

I agree regarding club histories and course histories.  Having recently read 2 "club" histories of the Belvedere Club, there is but 10 pages maximum in each one devoted to the golf course.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "Phil, thanks, I wish you would add more later. Please answer this for me----have you ever seen a decent history of a course by a researcher/author who essentially has or had no relationship with his subject's club?"

NO!

Now there are some histories that were not sanctioned or authorized by a club. An example of this is my history of Bethpage, Golf for the People: Bethpage and the Black. It was written with minimal contact with Bethpage at the time, yet led to a wonderful and close relationship till now. The reason for this is because it was completely accurate and they appreciated that.

Still, even though this is a history of Bethpage and its golf courses, more than half the book contains stories, poetry, interviews and anecdotes. As a result, it really isn't a true "club history" in the sense of how most club histories are researched, produced and written.

I am very fortunate to have a publisher who wants me to redo this along those lines; to expand it and explain the evolution of each of the courses as well as the history of the social aspects as well. For that reason it will be a very different book from its predecessor and will also require a great deal of interaction with those who work at Bethpage itself. The ONLY WAY this will come about is with my having a good relationship with those involved that especially involves trust and respect for the sensitive aspects of the history.

It is especially for this latter reason that relationships between researcher/author and those who manage and run a club, as well as its membership, is so vitally important in the creation of an accurate and well-written club history.

To put it succinctly, both club & author need to have a great deal of trust and faith in each other.

[Phil_the_Author]

Another thing to consider in this discussion is that much research done for a club has nothing to do with writing a history of any kind. For example, as the historain for the Tillinghast Association, I get at least three inquiries a week from different golf clubs, including some that were designed by Tilly and others that weren't, for help in understanding everything from historical aspects of their original designs to information about how to research their history.

I also get questions from both clubs and architects as to what specific features Tilly may have used in his original design of a specific course so that their coming restoration/renovation may be both accurate and properly done. Let me give you an example.

Recently I received a phone call asking about Tilly's use of mounds in design. The call was due to one member of a Board at a club insisting to another that Tilly didn't believe in using mounds and the other disagreeing with this. As the club had mounds on its course in an area where they had no history dating anywhere near back to its original design, he was insisting they be removed. Fortunately I was able to answer the question and supply a number of photographs and Tilly sketches that satisfied all. Sometimes though it isn't that easy...

The point though, is that many clubs need research that will effect how the club chooses to maintain or change their course without it being part of any book or other writing. This goes for architects as well who also need research that can aid them in how they finalize the design of a restoration and information that will allow for a well-received presentation of it...

[Bill_McBride]

Mark Rowlinson has written the centenary books of some UK courses, most notably Alwoodley's.  I have a copy and it is well done, well researched and well written.  I think it's probably preferable to have a professional writer do such a book, and since he's a non-member I thought his lack of "member's bias" was refreshing and informative.

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