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mark chalfant

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North Berwick's long holes
« on: July 14, 2009, 10:44:23 PM »
So far I have not played more than a handful of courses in Scotland.  If I were to base a trip around Scottish courses with very good sets of par fives, where should I play ?  I did enjoy the three par fives at North Berwick due to interesting bunkering  and angles on #8 and #11. Two questions,

1. What is your opinion regarding North Berwick's par fives ?
2. Other than Muirfield, which courses in Scotland have an excellent group of par fives.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:52:14 PM by mark chalfant »

Chris Ord

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 10:58:49 PM »
1. haven't played north berwick.  
2. i do like the two par 5's at this year's open venue.  also, the cardinal par 5 at prestwick is something to see.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:06:50 PM by Chris Ord »

Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 11:46:23 PM »
So far I have not played more than a handful of courses in Scotland.  If I were to base a trip around Scottish courses with very good sets of par fives where should I play ?   I did enjoy the three par fives at North Berwick due to interesting bunkers and angles on #8  and #11.  Two questions.

1. Whats your opinion regarding N.Berwick's par fives ?
2. Other than Muirfield, which courses in Scotland have an excellent group of par fives.

Mark, #9 is my favorite of the 3, the one you didn't mention!  #8 is a long long par 4 from the yellow tees, par 5 from the medal tees you usually don't get to play.  I love #9 with the Principals Nose in the center, OB hard left (reverse of #16 TOC), really neat elevated green.  I think it's an underrated hole at NB.  # 11 is pretty plain jane by contrast.

I love the two on the Old Course.  Muirfield's are really good.  Nothing else I've played jumps out at me.

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 12:16:46 AM »
Mark,

Like you I have only played a handful of courses in Scotland, but I liked North Berwick's par 5s and like Bill, I'd say #9 stands out in memory. 

Many around here say Carnoustie is charmless, but I liked the golf course and especially Hogan's Alley (#6) and Spectacles (#14).  If you like long difficult holes, several par 4s on Carnoustie's back nine are challenging, as shown in recent Opens  :)


Sean_A

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 03:21:37 AM »
Mark

The quality of NB's 9th and 11th are unsung - probably because of the Pit, Perfection, Gate and Redan.  I recall the 8th being a par 4 from the daily tees the last time I was there, but now I see its a par 5.  This isn't a great hole regardless of the par designation.  That said, I think it works better (in terms of mind games)  as a par 4.  Besides, if at all possible, back to back par 5s should be avoided. 

Cruden Bay has a very good set of par 5s (with one of the best in the land at #6) and unlike NB the set was sensibly kept to 2 holes. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 03:33:44 AM »
As Sean says, Cruden Bay has good ones - 6 is an excellent hole and 13 is very good indeed.

You have identified the best set, though, at Muirfield.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

James Boon

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 03:42:23 AM »
Mark,

One of the things I loved about North Berwicks long holes is that they are all at the far end of the course, really showing how the course developed from the shorter holes towards the town, then when lengthened it found the land to stretch its legs. I love the 9th for all the reasons stated above, and as Sean says, if it wasn't for the more famous holes on the course, it would probably be much better known.

As for other 'sets' of Scottish par 5s, I love the one par 5 at Brora, the 8th. A blind drive followed by a layup into some real rough ground to give you uneven lies to test your wedges play, or if you have a crack at the green, you try to bite off as much as you can of the diagonal ridge. Its been a while since I played but I remember really loving that hole.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 04:29:35 AM »
No.9 is a very good par-5 because of the bunkers added and the elevated green site... But I prefer No.11 which I think has some lovely ground movement and bunker placements around your lay-up 2nd shot area and a very tricky narrow green nestled in to a good site...

Mark_F

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 04:48:39 AM »
Macrihanish has a couple of pretty good ones, both around the 550 yard mark. 

10 has a good blind tee shot through the dunes, whilst 12 has that front to back green with the bunkered dip in front.

10 from tee. (not my images)
                               

10 from behind green:
                               

12th green near front edge:
                                 

Both great fun, as well as very good holes.

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 06:05:02 AM »
I too really like #9 at north Berwick, I liked going for the tee shot up the left between the boundary and the bunkers.  I have only played it from the medal tee’s which meant for me the 280 odd carry over the central bunkers was out of the question.  It might have been fun to attempt a carry over them from a more forward tee.

Actually is it ever possible to carry them even from the blue tee?

I played the 8th as a par five and really even from the medal tee it is quite easy to reach in two.  I found it a shame that the lay up was not more of an option.  I say this because it would be an interesting challenge to lay it up between the cross bunkers and the green or see how close you could lay up short of them.

The 11th was a tough hole when I played it straight into the wind.  The second shot presented a problem as there is a large hollow to the front left of the green from about 100 yards short to 50 yards short.  My ball was gathered in here and left me with a blind shot over the bunker that had to contend with the huge slope of the back of the bunker.  I was lucky and the flag was at the back of the green but if it were on the front left then it would have made this hollow a definite no go area.

Just short of where the hollow lie is a set of bunkers that you would have to place a lay up between.

Anthony Gray

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 07:28:51 AM »
As Sean says, Cruden Bay has good ones - 6 is an excellent hole and 13 is very good indeed.

You have identified the best set, though, at Muirfield.

  This is nice to hear.


Kevin Pallier

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 08:02:31 AM »
So far I have not played more than a handful of courses in Scotland.  If I were to base a trip around Scottish courses with very good sets of par fives where should I play ?

Mark

I wouldn't focus a tour based on a set of P5's ?

I did enjoy the three par fives at North Berwick due to interesting bunkers and angles on #8  and #11.  Two questions.

1. Whats your opinion regarding N.Berwick's par fives ?

They are OK but aren't the best feature of Nth Berwick. The variety in the P4's for mine are the highlight there - oh and of course "The Redan"

2. Other than Muirfield, which courses in Scotland have an excellent group of par fives.

One can't go past TOC...particularly the 14th and 17th  ;D

Anthony Gray

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 08:16:15 AM »


  Although not a par 5 I think 17 at NB is one of the best long par4's I've played, but does not get much talk.

  Anthony

 

Philippe Binette

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 08:35:51 AM »
Elie has a flawless set of par 5's... there is none...

Cruden Bay has great par 5's

Rich Goodale

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 09:29:51 AM »
Mark

I'll try to stick to the ones that I can remember that have something (or things) really interesting going on....

Brora #8--blind drive that you know you have to hit long to be able to get on in two, 2nd shot that if you can get on in two must be carved in from the left to skirt a hugh mound, hugh chasm short right of the green which means if you try to get on in two and fail, you have a veritble mountain to climb if you want to get on or near the green in 3, "bottle" fairway to the left of the hole which means that in any lay up in that direction you need to balance the reward of greater distance with the risk of finding the rough (or a nasty little left bunker).

Dornoch #12--miles of room right off the tee, obvious tiger-line to the left.  Hit it right and you have a straight but very long shot to the green, probably requiring a layup.  Hit it a few yards to the left of line A and you are in humpy rough which requires a blind layup.  Hit it straight and you have a shot to the green which (if you are long) requires a cut mid-long iron to reach and hold the green, and if you are short requires a sling hook with a wood between the right hand bunker and the 15 foot hump guarding the left (land slopes hard from left to right, against the normal geomorphology).  Big green with a lot of subtle breaks.

Old Course #4--long for us (although not for the pros), but featuring a 50-100 yard blind depression befoere the green that one must run through to reach the putting surface.  If this had ben built in the US in 2009 the depression would have been a pond and the 100 yard long green would have normally been pinned at the back rather than at the front.

New Course #4--a visible fairway with a lot of pitch and roll, then a shot towards a green tucked in a hollow behind two mounds bisected by a 10-15 yards opening.  As originally designed by OTM those two mounds were part of a continuous ridge, but the ridge was bisected by later power that were.  Same thing happened at Littlestone's 1st.  For anothe similar hole see the excelent 4th (?) Glasgow Gailes.

North Berwick #11--other than a great green, #9 at NB has not much to offer.  #11 has it all--demanding tee shot, rish return 2nd, great green site.  A hole that I could play every day and not get tired of it.

Troon #16--two forced carries at a critical part of the round.  Could be a 3, could be a 7.  Love it!

Cruden Bay #6--how can you not love a hole that the pompous arse Tom Simpson cited as one of his favourites when he didn't even design the green!?  Old Tom Morris and Archie Simpson did that, and T. Simpson improved the hole by making it a par-5, but the genius that is there is on the green, protected by its fascinating rolls and the "Bluidy Burn" which wraps around it.

Royal Aberdeen #2--takes you out into as good a 9 holes of linksland which exists.  After teeing of on the first in front (within 10 feet) of the members lounge, getting out into the heart of the course is nirvana.

Lundin Golf Club #9--by far the best of Braid's holes on the course (1909).  A drive you know you need to hit down the right with a draw to get maximum distance, but with magnificent houses just to the left and OB of that line it is too easy to bail out left and have no chance at the green.  The 2nd/3rd shot is to a green in a hollow with sharp slopes front to back and right to left.  You should be near or on this green in two, but 6's a 7's are easily made, even by the good players.

Torrance Course #18--I include this hole not only because I finished my latest round of golf here with a birdie on Monday, but also because I think that the designers have created a great finish which shows why water can be an interesting feature even on a golf course so near the home of golf.  Working gradually uphill, you need a very strong drive to even think of reaching the geeen, but if you do hit it far, the burn 50 yards of so in front of the green forces you to think about what you really want to do.  If the burn were not there, it would be only a two-whacks-as-hard-aws-you-can kind of hole, but the burn makes you think.  As the green is long and contoured, if you lay up, you need to be very careful on the 3rd shot, or a 6 is a distinct possibility.  It is not a particulalry "Scottish" sort of hole, but it is well designed, and standing on the green (or more enjoyablly, in the clubhouse) overlooking the Burgh of St. Andrews to the north, is one of the finer moments in golf.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 09:47:13 AM »
Rich,

I'm glad you agree with me on the merits of the 11th at North Berwick...

By nominating the 18th on the Torrance course, you made me think of another very good par-5 in St.Andrews... The 6th at the Dukes...

Rich Goodale

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 09:55:40 AM »
Thanks, Ally (and James Boon re: the 8th at Brora).

I've only driven around the Dukes before the renov was finished, so I can't comment on the new 6th.  I'll get there some day.

Cheers

Rich

Greg Holland

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 10:34:35 AM »
When we were there last fall, N. Berwick's no. 8 played 506 yards, and I liked the cross bunkers from 120 to 60 yards short of the green.  I liked 9, as was previously described with center line bunker on the drive and a neat green. I thought the 11th green was something -- caused me considerable pain (had a short wedge in for my third and ended up with a triple thanks to the severe fall off back right.  The dunes along the left were cool too.  Which reminds me, the views from the 10th tee were awesome.  

James Boon

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 12:44:40 PM »
Thanks, Ally (and James Boon re: the 8th at Brora).

I've only driven around the Dukes before the renov was finished, so I can't comment on the new 6th.  I'll get there some day.

Cheers

Rich

Thank you Richard! Though plenty of people discuss Brora I dont recall much mention of the 8th and its now way to long since I've played it so for somone else to discuss the merits of the hole hopefully means I'm not going mad!  ;D

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Steve Salmen

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 01:30:28 PM »
Mark,

Very interesting topic.  I never bothered to give this much thought.  I now think that most sets of par 5s in Scotland are quite weak.  I don't think 5 or 17 at Muirfield are all that fantastic.  Depending on the tees, they can easily be half par holes.  Same with Carnoustie.  I played 6 once from 490 or so, went 3w 4i.  From Medal tees my argument weakens but they are not always accessible to most players.  Turnberry only has one par 5 for the public.

Yesterday and day before I played Machrihanish from the back tees.  10 and 12 were both playing cross wind (l to r).  Both tee shots are extremely demanding.  The second at the 10th and the approach to 12 are the other key shots.  The approach to 10 is not bad, nor is the lay up on 12.  IMHO, I think Machrihanish is the winner.

Rich Goodale

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 01:55:15 PM »
Steve

You are right, but you must play holes like Carnoustie #6 and #5 and #17 Muirfield from the tips (ideally in a reasonable wind) to make a final judgement.   A hole I didn't include (Dornoch #9) is loved by most of the archies I have played with, but a pussycat in normal conditions.  Into the wind, however.....driver, driver, 6-iron, sand wedge, pitch and run, putt, putt, putt............. :o

Rich

PS=hope you're enjoying he Highlands.  See you in a month or so.

rfg

Mark Pearce

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 05:21:23 PM »
Mark,

Very interesting topic.  I never bothered to give this much thought.  I now think that most sets of par 5s in Scotland are quite weak.  I don't think 5 or 17 at Muirfield are all that fantastic.  Depending on the tees, they can easily be half par holes.  Same with Carnoustie.  I played 6 once from 490 or so, went 3w 4i.  From Medal tees my argument weakens but they are not always accessible to most players.  Turnberry only has one par 5 for the public.

Yesterday and day before I played Machrihanish from the back tees.  10 and 12 were both playing cross wind (l to r).  Both tee shots are extremely demanding.  The second at the 10th and the approach to 12 are the other key shots.  The approach to 10 is not bad, nor is the lay up on 12.  IMHO, I think Machrihanish is the winner.
As Rich says, you need to play from the back markers to judge them.  In any case, I don't think being a half par hole makes a par 5 a bad hole.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill_McBride

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 05:28:52 PM »
Rich Goodale says, "North Berwick --other than a great green, #9 at NB has not much to offer."

How do you handle that central bunker complex?  I have gone left and felt very lucky to be in short grass, and I have chickened out into the wind and gone way right into the hay.  I've always felt that center bunker makes the hole although I too love that green sitting up there with the nice right to left slope.

Bill

mark chalfant

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Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 09:36:50 PM »
Thanks for all the great suggestions  !!     I was curious about the par fives at Gleneagles, Archerfield and Kingsbarn....any standouts among these courses ?

Rich Goodale

Re: North Berwick's long holes
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 09:26:06 AM »
Mark

Gleneagles (Kings) has three "par" 5's and the first two of them (#6 and #10) are really just semi-long slogs uphill that are easily reachable in 2 by the elite player.  18 has interest in an opening over a ridge at 250 or so, hemmed in by gorse on either side,which, if cleared, will give to a mid-iron to the green.  The green is very big, but not much else.

Kingsbarns has a good set, the best of which are 9 and 12.  The former features a wild green (even though it has been toned down over the pat few years).  The latter is the 10th at Turnberry on steroids, playing a beautiful curve along the shore.  Even though it is 606, however, it never seems to difficult to reach in 2 by the pros.

Haven't played Archerfield.

Rich

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