Is poor mounding the fault of the architect or shapers?

[Tom_Doak]

Tony/Adrian,

I understand what you're saying, that you only want to do it your way now, and require to sign everything off and that has to be in the contract at the outset. Tell me though, what do you do, indeed what can you do, when half way through the project, the client who you thought was minted and had bought totally into what you were proposing either runs out of money or simply wants to make savings which compromises your design ? You can do the due diligence but you are in the lap of the gods when a financial sunami comes along, are you not ?

Niall

Niall:

Indeed, no "bulletproof" contract can cover the worst case scenarios to anyone's satisfaction ... and trying to go too far in covering such things up front can undermine your relationship with the client.

That said, I've heard a lot of architects worry about what happens if the client doesn't want to pay you to make site visits anymore.  The solution for that one is simple -- negotiate to get paid as much as you can up front, and then be willing to show up even without pay for site visits, if the quality of the finished product is important to you.  Any decent client would reward you at the end for sticking with it and helping to get the course finished.  But, I sometimes wonder if some architects are asked to leave, less for the money than because the client doesn't like what they're building, or he wants to play architect himself.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My contracts usually call for 20-25 site visits, but it varies.  Inevitably, I want to spend more time. I usually strike a deal that if they are willing to keep paying the expenses, I'm willing to keep coming out.  And, if I merely stay a few more days each trip, it doesn't cost them much.  If I keep flying out for one day, it gets a bit pricer. 

I have learned to always pack at least one extra days worth of clothes, sometimes two.  That is, except for renovations when I can get them to give me a logo shirt as compensation for my extra day.  Not exactly my daily rate, but it is something.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - Tom & Jeff pretty much said it. Of course I am at the lower end so cant be so pushy at the outset with clients, that aside I walk away from from more jobs than I do and I have an enquiry at the moment that I will walk from if it does not suit me, I simply have no intrest in producing rubbish....If it happens part way through its just unfortunate. Some clients already have a fixed opinion of what they want, this happens a lot with existing golf clubs and re-do's, sometimes they cherry pick ideas and disregard other things and sometimes selecting 2 from 3 does not work. Overall I think these problems are just what happens in design situations and we probably must just put up with it. I recently lost a job for a further nine holes where I had built two 18s already and that hurts, I lost that on price.

[Tony Ristola]

Tony/Adrian,

I understand what you're saying, that you only want to do it your way now, and require to sign everything off and that has to be in the contract at the outset. Tell me though, what do you do, indeed what can you do, when half way through the project, the client who you thought was minted and had bought totally into what you were proposing either runs out of money or simply wants to make savings which compromises your design ? You can do the due diligence but you are in the lap of the gods when a financial sunami comes along, are you not ?

Niall

I'd say Tom and Jeff pretty much covered it and I'll admit, if there is a weakness in my working method it is the ability to have a client go sideways. So, I have to select reliable clients.

The bit about savings usually isn't an issue, as I'm not particularly wired for spending money like government. Also part of my sales pitch. Hire me and they're going get a better product due to focus and commitment, saving money over the short and long haul. Once upon a time architect's actually preached excellence and economy!

[Marty Bonnar]

The designer - always.
If in doubt, design the whole thing in AutoCAD with 100mm contours and hire a Contractor with an Accugrade!
Smoooooooooooooth, baby.
FBD.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel the architects know for sure. i am guessing a little of both. I see them on the diagrams but it has to be lazy work by the shapers to end up as bad as they often do.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tiger,

It is both. I have worked with shapers who have been employed by major contractors for years who cannot shape that well, and newbies who take to it instantly.

No doubt a GREAT shaper can put subtlies in mounds and earth forms that no one can draw and I guess if we credit them for that, we ought to credit the bad mounds to them, when its their fault, too.

We usually have the option to remove an unsuitable shaper in our contract, but in reality, if a guy is cooperative but not creative, its a hard thing to do, both for the relationship with the contractor and the project schedule.  I have only had a few shapers removed from jobs, but I have quietly asked that many be relagated to rough shaping or tee building.

And, again, many times, shapers are hamstrung by a contractor who tries to short the dirt and doesn't give them enough earth to work with for generous tie ins, that are usually the key to the deal.  The best shapers make do.  Take a careful look at mounding next time you are on a course to see how many times they look great from the fw, but have incredibly steep backslopes, because a good shaper put the dirt where the golfer would see it.

[Derek Dirksen]

Joel, to answer your original question, I would say the architect.  I might be a little bit biased as I am a shaper


Jeff, great commments! 

[Tony Ristola]

Jeff, in a few concise paragraphs illustrates much.

1. Golf course builders are no magic bullet; the shapers they bring may or not be skilled (and the one you want you may not be able to get).

2. Builders are in the business to make money and are willing to cut to the bone.

3. Removing "inferior" personnel can be difficult.

4. The limitations and rigidity of planning.

All this can be overcome with the architect leading. Even an operator who has never shaped before can be trained to create forms. Someone has to give him eyes through communication.