So a group of my friends went to Michigan to play golf...

[Jim Franklin]

I could not imagine under any circumstance that CD is $180K to join.  It is not that kind of club; the places that try to get over 6 figure initiation fees are the new trendy clubs that are now letting people just walk up and pay the monthly dues and become a member.  Cypress Point, ANGC, CD, Merion, etc...would not have $180k initiation fees; from what I know about initiation fees which isn't much.

I would have to be shown the application with the initiation fee on it to believe that figure.

I would bet the initiation fee is around 50k. 

Im with you Kenny, thats why I was so shocked to hear that number.  Those old school places probably dont need that kind of capital influx and those types of initiation fees are generally for the Bayonnes and Trump Clubs of the world where its as much about the ego as it is the golf.

JC/Kenny -

I do not know the number. One of the guys said it to me and I do not know if it is accurate. He just said he would play AB 1000 times at $180 than pay $180k to join CD. I do not know if he knows what the cost is to join. It caught me by surprise as well.

[JC Jones]

I could not imagine under any circumstance that CD is $180K to join.  It is not that kind of club; the places that try to get over 6 figure initiation fees are the new trendy clubs that are now letting people just walk up and pay the monthly dues and become a member.  Cypress Point, ANGC, CD, Merion, etc...would not have $180k initiation fees; from what I know about initiation fees which isn't much.

I would have to be shown the application with the initiation fee on it to believe that figure.

I would bet the initiation fee is around 50k. 

Im with you Kenny, thats why I was so shocked to hear that number.  Those old school places probably dont need that kind of capital influx and those types of initiation fees are generally for the Bayonnes and Trump Clubs of the world where its as much about the ego as it is the golf.

JC/Kenny -

I do not know the number. One of the guys said it to me and I do not know if it is accurate. He just said he would play AB 1000 times at $180 than pay $180k to join CD. I do not know if he knows what the cost is to join. It caught me by surprise as well.

Well, to a certain extent Adam is right.  A membership there would be priceless and my guess is that the "market" value of such a membership were that to matter would likely be $180k or more.  I just would doubt that the club would put that tag on it, it just doesnt seem like that kind of place to me but then again, I dont know much about it.

[Mike_Young]

Crystal Downs --  I doubt anyone would like CD after  one or even two plays.  You need to see, play, feel this course over the course of at least 5-10 rounds before you can come up with a game plan of how to not only attack, but how to play double bogey prevent defense.  Most golfer, and most low markers do not like to be F***** after two nice shots, a G.I.R and a subsequent X for being on the wrong side or spot on the green; See #10. 

As a theory, you can scrape this one. I have witnesses.

Glad I can be exceptional, no matter how infrequent.

JC Jones, judging the members because their memberships are priced high is plain wrong.  CD memberships are virtually priceless, since joining is nearly impossible.

I knew Crystal Downs was exceptional when I drove in the parking lot the first time .....I don't think it would take 2 or 3 plays....
As for more people liking Arcadia..so what....it happens often....resort amenities have helped to develop a "person that plays golf" more so than golfers  ( and some of these "persons that play golf" are good players)....it all goes with the cigar, the mahogany lockers, the guy wiping your clubs with one swipe in the parking lot etc.....just give me that proshop /grill at CD and a golf pro that can wear shorts and no socks and you got me.....

[Will Haskett]

I've loved Arcadia the times I've played it. If you can hit it deep off the tee, it really gives you an advantage as the design certainly benefits the longer player. Sure, the views are tremendous, but there are several holes with great design features and some fantastic bunkering and green complexes. Some holes, unfortunately, are a bit too much or simply don't fit. I wouldn't call it a consistent golf course, but strong for a modern design on that land.

I wish I could compare it to Crystal Downs, but have never found a connection to play it. I've vacationed every summer of my lilfe just south of there and would love a chance to experience it. Short of knowing a member (unfortunately, I don't), how does anybody get a chance to play it?

[Chris DeNigris]

I would be shocked if anywhere near a majority of "typical" golfers preferred a course like CD over Arcadia. Even low handicappers. Totally shocked and maybe a little disappointed.

Sensoral vs intellectual

White zin vs Red zin

NASCAR vs Polo

Stephen King vs Henry James

Pam Anderson vs Gillian Anderson (okay, maybe that one's a stretch)

Unless one is lucky enough to have stumbled onto a DG like this one to become educated... or maybe to have grown up in a GCA-oriented environment...you're likely to be one of the zillions of golfers who blissfully roam the fairways without a clue that they just 3 putted a Redan or a Biarritz.

Or even care.

Just like me a couple of years ago.

[Buck Wolter]

White zin vs Red zin

I would think a better wine analogy may be a well made, fruit-forward, new world red versus an age-worthy burgundy.  Arcadia has many things this group tends to espouse such as firm and fast conditions based on a sandy base, a design that has the width to allow for what is a seriously windy site and while there was nothing minimalist in the construction it feels like it in practice. A white zin it is not.

[Chris DeNigris]

Buck,

Those choices were not intended to reflect on either course, but rather on the general preferences of most of the golfing public and public in general. The vast majority are just not wired like most of the folks around here.

[David Neveux]

JC

In re: Arcadia, I didn't include 12 as a reachable 5.  I don't think any others are quite that long.  I could be wrong. 

Adam 

I'm not sure what to make of your comments, I'm just not that dang smart   My point being most players will tend to dismiss golf holes / courses that does not yield low numbers after a G.I.R., or two well played shots.  Not me, I love the punishment.  I wasn't really into GCA when I first played Crystal Downs, but I left there fascinated with a strong desire to return.  This may have been the course that essentially caused me to join this site. 

I think in the end, who cares if they didn't like it or prefer Arcadia.  We know what we like, and that should be all that matters.  Now it's completely different to spit negatives about a course they likely didn't understand / appreciate.  You can learn something different about the golf course with every visit there, and thats the beauty of it. 

Did they have any wind at CD, or Arcadia?

[Bill_McBride]

Crystal Downs --  I doubt anyone would like CD after  one or even two plays.  You need to see, play, feel this course over the course of at least 5-10 rounds before you can come up with a game plan of how to not only attack, but how to play double bogey prevent defense.  Most golfer, and most low markers do not like to be F***** after two nice shots, a G.I.R and a subsequent X for being on the wrong side or spot on the green; See #10. 

As a theory, you can scrape this one. I have witnesses.

Glad I can be exceptional, no matter how infrequent.

JC Jones, judging the members because their memberships are priced high is plain wrong.  CD memberships are virtually priceless, since joining is nearly impossible.

I knew Crystal Downs was exceptional when I drove in the parking lot the first time .....I don't think it would take 2 or 3 plays....
As for more people liking Arcadia..so what....it happens often....resort amenities have helped to develop a "person that plays golf" more so than golfers  ( and some of these "persons that play golf" are good players)....it all goes with the cigar, the mahogany lockers, the guy wiping your clubs with one swipe in the parking lot etc.....just give me that proshop /grill at CD and a golf pro that can wear shorts and no socks and you got me.....

 

[Doug Ralston]

Have I misunderstood what has been said here? I have not played Crystal Downs, and have played Arcadia Bluffs.  No way putting on Crystal Downs is more difficult than Arcadia though, is there?

Arcadia's greens are almost off the charts difficult, or were for me. In fact, I saw those greens as the really strongest defense of the course [which is sloped 147, significantly high for us bogey type golfers].  Overall, I thought it had many excellent holes. Certainly a high quality experience, and just as certainly not just about the lake. Paid $90 for the old man's fee, most ever for me. Would be glad to pay it again.

Only rate Greywalls higher of Michigan courses I have played, and that may be because pinballing off those rocks reminds me of my hillbilly roots. 

Doug

[JC Jones]

JC

In re: Arcadia, I didn't include 12 as a reachable 5.  I don't think any others are quite that long.  I could be wrong. 

After the driver/3wood combo you hit to 6 feet on number one at Kingsley, I think every par 5 is reachable for you!  And for those of you who have played Kingsley, he was at the bottom of the hill after his drive and hit a 3 wood up hill, slightly into the wind, 6 feet past the middle pin.  UNREAL.

[Andy Troeger]

Have I misunderstood what has been said here? I have not played Crystal Downs, and have played Arcadia Bluffs.  No way putting on Crystal Downs is more difficult than Arcadia though, is there?

From the tips Arcadia Bluffs could possibly be more difficult than Crystal Downs from the tips, but that's a huge difference in yardage. Play them both at 6500 yards and CD is easily more difficult IMO.

[Andy Troeger]

Whats sad is not that they prefer Arcadia to the other two.  That is a matter of opinion, and I'm not going to debate someone elses preferences.  Whats is sad are statements like "they hated Kingsley" or thought that "Crystal Downs was tricked up."  They don't have enough experience on these courses to quantify those statements and therefore they come off like ignorant jackasses.  They have the wrong attitude, and thats too bad.  Thats why Arcadia is a success using the "resort" model and Crystal Downs and Kingsley are the ultimate "member" courses.  Whats equally as sad is that it would seem these guys have no idea how lucky they are to be granted access to these great private courses, only to turn around to there buddies back at BCC and say, "oh yeah I played Crystal, didn't really like it."  "How Come, what did you shoot?"  "Well I had a 86 with 3 X's and just felt like it was tricked up."  "Hmmm, yeah I hate courses like that!!"  If they want to see a "tricked up" course I suggest they visit "The Chief" next time they're in Northern Michigan. 

David,
With all due respect folks on this website do that kind of thing with alarming frequency. I think the vast majority of us that have played very many private clubs have probably posted something negative about at least one of them--I have to admit being in that group. I loved Kingsley, but I have a good friend that didn't care for it at all and he's played many of the greatest courses around the world.

All,
The tone of some posts on this thread that anybody thinking Arcadia Bluffs is the best course of the bunch is an idiot comes across as a bit silly to me. AB has a lot going for it and even though its not valued by this group particularly, that should not allow us to so easily dismiss others' views simply because they prioritize different aspects of the course than our own individual views. And I like Crystal Downs and Kingsley better than Arcadia Bluffs, for what that's worth.

[David Neveux]

Andy,

You're absolutely right, this is a discussion board for frank and honest commentary of GCA.  I was speaking to the point of that these guys didn't enjoy the course because they scored poorly and then decided it was tricked up.  I don't think there are many on this site that rate / judge / discuss courses based on there own personal score.  I'm all for your friend saying he didn't like Kingsley, just would want to hear why?  Everyone is certainly entitled to there own opinion, I have many that I'd bet a good majority here would dismiss in an instant and thats fine. 

JC,

It only goes to show that distance isn't everything

[Tim Bert]

Have I misunderstood what has been said here? I have not played Crystal Downs, and have played Arcadia Bluffs.  No way putting on Crystal Downs is more difficult than Arcadia though, is there?

From the tips Arcadia Bluffs could possibly be more difficult than Crystal Downs from the tips, but that's a huge difference in yardage. Play them both at 6500 yards and CD is easily more difficult IMO.

Andy, I think Doug was referring specifically to putting in that statement, so tips or yardage shouldn't really matter.  I have not played Arcadia Bluffs but I'd be happy to commit to Crystal Downs being the more demanding putting course without seeing Arcadia.  I know that reflects a fair bit of ignorance, but I'd also be willing to commit to Crystal Downs being the more difficult putting course than ANY other course I haven't played, and I'd be right the vast majority of the time!

[Andy Troeger]

David,
Its interesting though how sometimes score matters and sometimes it does not. Speaking from personal experience, I don't even keep a scorecard most of the time so I can easily make the argument that score matters not. However, at the same time whenever I complain that a course is too difficult or unreasonable or whatever, thats a tough statement to make when one shoots a good score    At the same time, I really believe that some courses ARE too difficult whether it be for me, the average golfer, etc. So even for those of us that don't keep a score, the way we play the course and interact with the features of it HAS to make some difference. The ability to block that out to a point and be reasonable about it is key.

Regarding the fellow at Kingsley, his argument was that the course has too many severe slopes feeding the ball away from the green. The more he mentioned specific situations the more I could see his argument, even if his complaint wasn't something that bothers me. Thinking of the front nine, there are spots on #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 9 where the ball can get repelled away from the green. One important point from his perspective was not that balls went away from the green, but the severity of how they did so. The only hole that bothered me was short right of #2, and Mike DeVries has altered the way that plays a bit since I've been there. Its part of the playability argument that we have on here occasionally--for some golfers those kinds of slopes are just as frustrating as lost balls.

[Andy Troeger]

Have I misunderstood what has been said here? I have not played Crystal Downs, and have played Arcadia Bluffs.  No way putting on Crystal Downs is more difficult than Arcadia though, is there?

From the tips Arcadia Bluffs could possibly be more difficult than Crystal Downs from the tips, but that's a huge difference in yardage. Play them both at 6500 yards and CD is easily more difficult IMO.

Andy, I think Doug was referring specifically to putting in that statement, so tips or yardage shouldn't really matter.  I have not played Arcadia Bluffs but I'd be happy to commit to Crystal Downs being the more demanding putting course without seeing Arcadia.  I know that reflects a fair bit of ignorance, but I'd also be willing to commit to Crystal Downs being the more difficult putting course than ANY other course I haven't played, and I'd be right the vast majority of the time!

The greens at Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs are really different in size and style so that makes it difficult to compare them. I didn't find many putts at CD that were theoretically impossible (although above the hole to certain pins on #11 might apply). Arcadia has some really large tiers and they put pins below them when I was there, so if you were on the wrong tier the putt was essentially impossible to lag without making it. If one avoids those situations some other putts weren't that tough. I had 12 putts through 4 holes at Crystal Downs if that says anything--they're as challenging as anything I've ever played. The greens affect every shot at Crystal Downs--I'm not sure I could say that about Arcadia Bluffs.

[David Neveux]

Andy,

Surely score has some bearing over enjoyment, I like shooting good scores and dislike shooting poor scores.  As far as some courses being too tough for some, absolutely your right.  I was under the impression these guys were low handicappers, so I merely made the assumption based on the information available.  Score should not be the only criteria over which you judge whether you liked a course or not.  By that standard, I didn't really like any of the courses at Bandon, The Ocean Course, Oakmont, Etc. (thats why we play match play )

As far as your friends comments about Kingsley, I also can see his point.  That to me is a constructive argument that has some merit and can be discussed and debated.  Everyone who's played there has been the victim of a poor bounce and ends up in a spot nearly unplayable after what was almost a great shot.  I've always felt that out there for every slope that feeds your ball away from the green theres another were it will feed it back toward the hole.  Sure, that is frustrating for everyone, but over time you have to learn how to avoid these spots, when and where you can.  In the case of number two, you really just have to hit the green.  Short right is probably the best miss now, I'm not sure I ever played the version you mentioned. 

[Andy Troeger]

David,
I agree with most of your comments on score--although I think the initial assumption may have been a bit of a stretch (although you may also be totally right). It is human nature I think to assume that type of situation, but then we of course defend outselves when we do something that may be a bit of the same thing. 

The thing that I like about those holes at Kingsley is how pin placements drastically affect the way the holes play. There are pins that are accessible because of gathering slopes but also really tough pins such as the front one on #2. I'm talking about that big gully...its not really "short" as much as right of the front part of the green. It doesn't much affect other pin placements.

[Tom_Doak]

The only thing I can clear up on this thread is that the initiation fee at Crystal Downs is nowhere close to $180,000.  If it was, I would not have been able to join the club.  When I joined twenty years ago it was $25,000 ... I am sure it's more than that now but not in six figures.

The $180,000 was a throwaway figure to compare to the $180 green fee at Arcadia Bluffs, that's all.  Though personally, you would have to pay ME $180 to play Arcadia instead of Crystal Downs which costs me nothing more than the annual dues [which, because of the short golfing season, are less than any top-100 course in America of which I am aware].

[JC Jones]

The only thing I can clear up on this thread is that the initiation fee at Crystal Downs is nowhere close to $180,000.  If it was, I would not have been able to join the club.  When I joined twenty years ago it was $25,000 ... I am sure it's more than that now but not in six figures.

The $180,000 was a throwaway figure to compare to the $180 green fee at Arcadia Bluffs, that's all.  Though personally, you would have to pay ME $180 to play Arcadia instead of Crystal Downs which costs me nothing more than the annual dues [which, because of the short golfing season, are less than any top-100 course in America of which I am aware].

Thank you, Tom.  You have re-affirmed my belief that Crystal Downs is indeed the greatest place in the world!

[Link Walsh]

Hello everyone.  This is my first official post after being a GCA "lurker" for quite a while.  I got a chance to meet several of you up in Michigan for the Kinglsey trip and just had a great time.  So I figured it was time to quit staying on the sidelines and get involved.   

About 5 or 6 years ago, my buddies and I had the chance to play Arcadia, Crystal, and Kingsley in the span of 3 days.  I had a great time at Arcadia, although it seemed overly manufactured with some of the "dunesy" mounds.  I think the worst hole out there is that par 5 5th hole where you hit 2 shots straight down the hill, then turn 90 degrees left around some bunkers to a green perched up on the hill.  There were some good holes out there though, like the old 8th (now 16)- a long downhill par 4 away from the clubhouse with the green running front to back.  I really liked the par 5 3rd hole too with its skyline green.   

But Crystal Downs was, and is to me, in another league altogether.  I'm normally about a low 80s shooter, and I think I shot like a 102 that day.  But it was awesome.  After hearing so much about the greens before going out there, I suggested on the drive to the course that we make a little wager among the three of us.  The first one to putt off of a green would have to buy dinner that night.  Needless to say, I lost the bet on the third hole...  (and I would have lost it again on the 8th hole too- where my 10 foot putt from above the hole after the best knockdown 8 iron of my life went 40 yards back down the fairway).  Crystal Downs was the most fair "hard" course I've ever played.  I didn't think it was "tricked up" at all, only a course that you could enjoy playing and learning every day. 

Link Walsh         

[Jim Franklin]

I bumped into another of the "Michigan" gang yesterday, and all he said was "Arcadia, wow".

[JC Jones]

I bumped into another of the "Michigan" gang yesterday, and all he said was "Arcadia, wow".

Similarly, I drove by the entrance to Crystal Downs today on my way to the Point Betsie Lighthouse.  I looked over and all I could say was "wow."