"lie" and topography

[TEPaul]

I don't recall if topography and "lie" has ever been discussed in depth on this website. It's an interesting architectural subject though and apparently an eternally controversial one amongst golfers.

I thought of it because I got another call the other day on the subject regarding Huntingdon Valley and what I thought of the course because of that. Huntingdon Valley is definitely the most severe really good course I know topographically with a level lie virtually impossible on maybe up to 3/4 of the holes. You get a very serious introduction to it right on the first tee shot (one of the more topographically sloping  fairways anywhere).

But the reaction to HVGC is interesting in the breadth of the spectrum of opinion to this playing feature or architectural feature. Some can't stand it and others think the reason HVGC has so many great players and ball strikers is because of this feature or theme.

Personally, I like it very much and consider it one of the most challenging architectural features in golf that gets very little mention in architecture generally!

New construction architects probably don't do it much at all compared to the older ones because today they can do something about it with machinery.

How do you all feel about lie and topography, particularly very uneven lies?

There are tons and tons of holes to mention that use this in all kinds of various and interesting ways.

[brad_miller]

One of the best natural forms of hazard in golf (when not silly). Rarely seen on many modern courses, and if these lies are not natural it can clearly be seen.
15th fairway WF(W)
8 and 9th fairways at Priarie Dunes
9th fairway at Friar's Head??? (I think)....
many over in the British Isles....

9th at Rustic Canyon, but it isn't the hazard like 8 and 9 at PD

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Montclair Golf Club in NJ has 36 holes of uneven lies.

If you can play there, you can play anywhere.

It is about to host the IKE.

[Matt_Davenport]

Tom,
So much of modern golf course construction has elminated the severely sloping fairway.  Minimalists may still choose to preserve some sloped fairways, prefering to spend construction dollars elsewhere.  Today's construction budgets also definitely drive the elimination of sloped areas.  We all know that one Pro-Architect has a propensity to provide "flat" fairways (it's all about those shadow lines created by a 3:1 fill slope, I suppose ).  Natrually the existing topography and the routing of the golf course along the contours has alot to do with whether or not cross-slopes are present.  The rule of thumb I had previously used was that a 10% slope--one foot of fall in ten feet (you need a 2% slope for adequate surface drainage) would allow a ball to stop.  I'm not so sure with exceedingly tight-mown fairways this holds true today.  HVCC definitely has some wicked sloped fairways.  Is that one reason they're players are accomplished--maybe...  or is it a combination of architectural elements that has produced analytical players who are capable of breaking down the shot required to produce the desired result?

[A_Clay_Man]

Spyglass Hill has way fewer flat lies than 25%. I defy anyone to play well after teeing it up on the range. To practice shotmaking from the range is a lesson in futility and will invariably lead to this quote, " I didn't hit it like that on the range".

Well duh!

[Dan Kelly]

Adam, et al. --

Has any of you ever seen a driving range that was not essentially flat?

A driving range with flat, above-the-feet, below-the-feet, uphill and downhill lies -- now THERE'S a new idea. No?

[TEPaul]

Dan kelly;

Uneven lies on a practice range is not new. One only has to see the super sophiticated new range area at Pine Valley. This new range is immense with a super flat surface but there are areas designed on the side of it to practice uneven lies of various kinds!!

[TEPaul]

And furthermore my understanding is that the new practice range at Ken Bakst's new Friar's Head is also equally super sophisticated! I'm not sure if Ken Bakst has thought to design in an "uneven lie" area to it but if he happens to read this thread the chances are probably excellent that he will do that!

[Charles_P.]

Tom-

Seeing your post here, and knowing your professed love for Maidstone, brings to mind the one thing I think Maidstone is really missing -- uneven lies.  It would really augment Maidstone's links feel to have lots of gentle undulations in the fairways to affect one's stance.  Uneven stances are a great complement to windy settings, as you really have to think about what your ball is going to do (e.g., above your feet in a hook ind, etc.).

Unfortunately, I think a course is either born with such features naturally occurring, or must go without; I can't think of any convincing imitations of rolling St. Andrews-style terrain.

[TEPaul]

CharlesP:

Interesting what you say about Maidstone and the effect of it having some undulations in its fairways. I agree it would be a neat feature to have but that's not the way it naturally was and with the age of the course things like that were probably not really thought of.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a neat and fun feature to have if it was subtle enough to go with that overall topography and feel of the place.

I believe that C&C did that at Easthampton even on the flatter open nine--it plays great and is subtle enough that no one would think that it wasn't that way naturally and originally.

[Dr._Katz]

Burp!  

Pardon me; that was rude.