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Anthony Gray

THe Half Par- Par 4
« on: May 19, 2009, 10:15:57 AM »


  Examples?

  I'll start with The Road Hole  4.5

  TOC 9  3.5


  Anthony


Chip Gaskins

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 10:21:04 AM »
Pacific Dunes #7 - 4.5
Olympic Club #5 - 4.5

Sand Hills #7 - 3.5
Cypress Point #9 - 3.5

Anthony Gray

Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 10:46:31 AM »

  Pebble Beach 9  is always a lay up for me. A 4.5 for most.

  Anthony

« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:56:32 AM by Anthony Gray »

JNC Lyon

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 10:54:14 AM »
Oak Hill East #17 - 4.5
Garden City #15 - 4.5
The Country Club #10 - 3.5
St. George's #17 - 4.5

"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ben Sims

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 05:42:51 PM »
Chip,

I would argue that the better par 4.5 at Pacific--when the wind is blowing--is 13. Last time I played there it was 3 wood, 3 wood, chip and putt for par.  All four were the best shots I could make.  When the north wind really whips, it easily plays 70 yards longer and that makes it as demanding as 7, and, IMO, more  beautiful. 

Pebble #9 jumps to mind, but obviously did for others as well.  Cumulatively, the 10th at Augusta has played to a 4.32 by the best players in the world for the entire existence of the tournament.  That for me defines what a half par hole is.

I would be foolish not to mention the 15th at Yeaman's Hall. 




Carl Nichols

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 05:52:19 PM »
#5 at Cuscowilla, in part because you can make anywhere from a 2 to a 10. 

John_Cullum

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 09:35:20 AM »
9 and 18 at Cuscowilla as well, both 4.5
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Rich Goodale

Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 09:36:47 AM »
2nd at Dornoch--4.5

Patrick Glynn

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 09:51:11 AM »
Lahinch 4th "Klondyke" has to be my favorite par 4.5 

Just this weekend I hit 3 wood - 7 iron on for a 2-putt birdie and the next day I hit driver, hybrid, wedge and was damn glad of my par.

Mark Pearce

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 09:53:28 AM »
Numbers 5, 6, 7, 10 and 15 (3.5-4.0) and 12 (4.5) at Elie.  Some would argue that the 2nd fits the bill as well but it doesn't for me.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 09:55:17 AM »
Lahinch 4th "Klondyke" has to be my favorite par 4.5 

Just this weekend I hit 3 wood - 7 iron on for a 2-putt birdie and the next day I hit driver, hybrid, wedge and was damn glad of my par.
Patrick,

That's a par 5, though, isn't it?  No doubt Anthony may post a thread calling for par 5s (and many of the best par 5s are half par holes) but this thread is for par 4s.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Scott Warren

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2009, 10:07:14 AM »
10 @ St Enodoc
12 @ Deal
3 @ Deal off the men's tee.

John Kirk

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2009, 10:09:24 AM »
Two wise-ass remarks:

1.  Bandon Trails #14 is a par 3.5 or a par 4.5 or a par 5.5.  Five is a good score there.

2.  Over the past few years, I have kept track of hole-by-hole scores at several scores I have a chance to lay regularly, enough to keep significant statistics.  The holes that come closest to 4.5 are:

Ballyneal #1 - 4.50
Kinloch #6 - 4.51
Stone Eagle #14 - 4.55

There are few instances where my average score on par 3s is near 3.5.:

Kingsley #11 - 3.50

I'm only making the point that as a 1-3 handicap player, I average 4.75-5.00 on so-called par 4.5 holes, and about 3.4-3.6 on tough par 3s, so for me, those are the swing holes.

Ed Oden

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2009, 10:15:34 AM »
How are you defining a half par hole?  Is it just one that plays significantly easier or harder than its designated par?  Or is it one where attempting to play the hole tee to green in a different number of strokes than regulation is a viable option?  Seems to me the former is strictly a question of difficulty whereas the latter is one of design.

Ed

Tim Bert

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2009, 10:24:17 AM »
For those talking about PacDunes #7 and #13 I suspect you are playing different seasons.

#13 in summer wind

#7 and #4 in winter wind


Gary Slatter

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 10:32:02 AM »
any given hole any given day can vary by more than .5 strokes - par is meaningless in some weather conditions. 
I've made many great 5s on the Road Hole, never once felt I was .5 over par. :) 
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Phil_the_Author

Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2009, 10:35:14 AM »
Ed,

Taking your comment "How are you defining a half par hole?  Is it just one that plays significantly easier or harder than its designated par?  Or is it one where attempting to play the hole tee to green in a different number of strokes than regulation is a viable option?  Seems to me the former is strictly a question of difficulty whereas the latter is one of design..." to the next step, I think integral to the definition is WHEN is the choice of playing the hole a viable option that defines it as a half-par. Let me give an example.

The 5th hole at Bethpage Black. If the good player hits a good drive that goes a bit left-of-center, they will be faced with an uphill blind second shot over trees. The smart play is to then lay-up down the fairway along the right as close to the end of it as possible, thus leaving a short 40+ yard wedge shot into the green.

Now, is this then a half-par hole by definition? Must the defining factor be a decision of how it is to be played before one tees off or can it be after? Is the definition of the half-par hole one of how to save par with smart plays and take bogey as the worst score?

Now I believe that the 5th on the Black is a true half-par hole because it bears the classic Tilly design features of various routes that he would have laid out in a drawing. The same for the 12th hole. On the other hand, the long tough par-4's numbers 10, 15 & 16 wouldn't be as they, despite being longer and more difficult than the 5th, only allow for a single DESIGNED planned play. In other words, if you looked at a design drawing of these holes it would have shown a SINGLE tee shot and a second shot drawn in.

So, doesn't the architect's design intent become the chief point of definition?

Jim Nugent

Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2009, 11:18:40 PM »
#18 at Carnoustie and #18 at Oakmont.  Each played to an average of over 4.6 for the pro's in recent majors there.

#10 at the Belfry, when they don't put the tee all the way back.   

Brian Joines

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2009, 12:07:12 AM »
#13 at Kinglsey is my personal favorite.

Matt Day

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Re: THe Half Par- Par 4
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2009, 02:49:19 AM »
The 4th at Woodlands in Melbourne would be a 3.5 that you can sometimes multiply by 2 and walk off with 7

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