Tom Doak's Quote from the other thread on greenkeeping

[Scott Furlong]

This post and question is hilarious. 

Ok, Ok, I’ll admit it, I wear nice clothes.  But back in the day I looked like a mud wrestler and tried to learn everything.  Our profession has come a long way.  Higher budgets, bigger crews, and higher salaries and because of it there is more volatility.  Every situation is different.  It seems most good Superintendents are paranoid and sensitive for the first 3-5 years on the job.  I don’t know if that is the proper word but it seems to fit. 

First there is the learning curve; studying the course inch by inch, problems above ground, problems below ground, what kind of crew do you have, etc.  Second; mentally you got the job because you were a good salesman and you believe in yourself.  You know how to get things done the right way and nobody can do it as good as you.  Result you try to do everything.  There is nothing wrong with that and it’s a very important process in learning your course……..what works and what doesn’t work.  With that said, once you feel comfortable with the course and you have assembled your team, its then time to trust your Assistants, interns, and your crew to get the job done.  If you have a smaller budget maybe you can’t do it to the same scale as the larger budget course but you can still do it.  It’s all about trust.  How is an intern going to become an assistant and how is an assistant going to become a Superintendent if they don’t know how to run a crew, spray a green, fix an irrigation leak, change cups or grind a reel on a daily basis?  This is how we grow our profession.   

Tom Doak,

Who’s to say the Superintendent or the Assistant Superintendent that looks good is not getting the job done?  If the job is getting done and the members are happy who cares.  Who knows, they could have been covered in mud in the morning and changed clothes.  What is a Golf Course Architect suppose to look like?  Who cares?  I don’t know how you look or if you get dirty.  I’ve seen your work and it’s great.  I could care less if you wear a tie or sport a wife beater and cut off jeans with white pockets hanging, it doesn’t matter…..the end product is what matters. 

Sincerely,

The hot shot manager that dresses like a pro     

[Pat Brockwell]

When I leave the house in the morning I wear nice clothes to make my wife proud.  When I get to work I change into jeans with mud stains on the kness and a sweatshirt with paint splatters and grease spots.  How else do I keep people from thinking that I've got it too good?

[Don_Mahaffey]

This post and question is hilarious. 

Ok, Ok, I’ll admit it, I wear nice clothes.  But back in the day I looked like a mud wrestler and tried to learn everything.  Our profession has come a long way.  Higher budgets, bigger crews, and higher salaries and because of it there is more volatility.  Every situation is different.  It seems most good Superintendents are paranoid and sensitive for the first 3-5 years on the job.  I don’t know if that is the proper word but it seem to fit. 

First there is the learning curve; studying the course inch by inch, problems above ground, problems below ground, what kind of crew do you have, etc.  Second; mentally you got the job because you were a good salesman and you believe in yourself.  You know how to get things done the right way and nobody can do it as good as you.  Result you try to do everything.  There is nothing wrong with that and it’s a very important process in learning your course……..what works and what doesn’t work.  With that said, once you feel comfortable with the course and you have assembled your team, its then time to trust your Assistants, interns, and your crew to get the job done.  If you have a smaller budget maybe you can’t do it to the same scale as the larger budget course but you can still do it.  It’s all about trust.  How is an intern going to become an assistant and how is an assistant going to become a Superintendent if they don’t know how to run a crew, spray a green, fix an irrigation leak, change cups or grind a reel on a daily basis?  This is how we grow our profession.   

Tom Doak,

Who’s to say the Superintendent or the Assistant Superintendent that looks good is not getting the job done?  If the job is getting done and the members are happy who cares.  Who knows, they could have been covered in mud in the morning and changed clothes.  What is a Golf Course Architect suppose to look like?  Who cares?  I don’t know how you look or if you get dirty.  I’ve seen your work and it’s great.  I could care less if you wear a tie or sport a wife beater and cut off jeans with white pockets hanging, it doesn’t matter…..the end product is what matters. 

Sincerely,

The hot shot manager that dresses like a pro     

Scott,
That's a good post...but I don't think this thread was ever about how someone dresses.

You’re the type of Super that GCSAA loves to promote. PDI and all the rest of that wasted money was all about promoting the executive super with a dozen interns and a half-dozen multi pros.
Just because someone comes out and says the hands-on guy may be in demand while the economy is heading south is not an attack on the foot-joy crowd. Maybe Tom's friend is right, maybe he's not. But giving the down and dirty guy a little credit takes nothing away from the 'executive super" crowd. Most successful supers have worked their ass off to get where they are, just because we all don’t end up in the same place doesn’t mean one guy is better than the other.   

[Scott Furlong]

Don,

This post/question is a joke.  There are Sups that look like pros that are good and bad.  There are dirty guys that are good and bad.  Who cares?  My intent was not to be rude but if you read the post above you will see a reference to Hot-shot managers and managers that look like pros.  My point is who cares its all about the end product not how big the budget is.  You might interpret the middle paragraph as a knock on guys that do everything.  Think what you must but it’s my own personal view.  It’s not a knock on the guys that are more hands on; it’s an attempt to make the guys that read these posts to understand both sides.  I would be saying the same thing if someone posted about, “Redneck looking grass cutter is that the proper look for a Superintendent?”  I don’t know you and you don’t know me but I’m a Superintendent supporter and I don’t think anyone should pass judgment on a person no matter how they look.  All I know is I agree with every Superintendent that has posted about this thread because they do what they have to do to get the job done.  We do this job because we love it, breath it, live it, and lose sleep over it. 

[Scott Furlong]

By the way how many posts do I need to make to get rid of this Newbie tag?   

[Don_Mahaffey]

Scott,
The thread turned into a joke when it became about how we dressed and whether we get dirty.
Having said that, I don't think the first post was a joke, and I say that because in the last year more guys I know have lost their jobs than in any other year I can remember. Not, the lost job as in we want to take it to the next level or you killed the greens, more like,  replace the supt with the assistant and eliminate one assistant position. Some of that is unavoidable as those things happen in a down economy, but not all of it.
Whether you agree with him or not, Doak sees a lot of courses and meets many, many supts. He's just sharing what he's seeing and hearing; it's not really an opinion as much as an observation.   

[John Spraggs]

Whilst I do agree with everything said above and having worked my way up through high end clubs as a crew member, assistant, to now being a Sup at a smaller club, I will say the higher end Sups do have more on their plate in they way of board meetings, greens committees/chairman, high maintenance members and simply being more accessible to the membership than the smaller club guys.

IMO I think you’ll find most of the “good” Sups even at the highest level clubs know how to and can do most of the day to day jobs in the shop and out on the course…

Hi Leo, Great comment, I can see a heading for a seminar presentation coming up. 
Steve

I wouldn't agree altogether with the call that the "high end guys" have more on their plate because I think that is always going to be a tough sell to a guy that is managing the same number of holes for a membership with the same expectations with about a quarter of the budget and a quarter of the blokes and probably a quarter of every other thing that goes into producing the end product. What I would say is that the role of the superintendent has expanded and changed (and it needed to).  I know, and know of, so many Superintendents who have simply failed at their clubs - not based on their knowledge and expertise with regards to turf management or ability with a wrench but their failure to be able convey and sell that expertise and knowledge to the very people that they essentially work for ie Boards/Committees/Members.  The reality is that Greenkeeping has always had perception issues.  The person that hides in his shed delighting in his grease covered overalls and referring to the Greenkeeping Staff as "us" and the Club and its officials as "them" will always struggle and unfortunately will achieve less in the long term.

Every Supers situation is different.  The expectations, the size of the crew etc. the role and so on are different.

I personally enjoy getting out there and leading the crew from the front.  And thats what has been necessary in my situation (and what has been required).  I have found that the guys (and members) have responded better to that and the culture I have developed because of that has ensured that I probably got more productivity out of my guys and achieved a bit more because of it.  But hey, I am the first one to throw on a suit and tie and head off to a board meeting.  I stand up at AGMs/meetings and present my visions or plans for the future.  I wear a clean uniform (dress like the Pro in a sense!) and engage the membership on a daily basis.  That is what the modern Super has to do - well should do(!) - and I think it is those guys that are probably performing the best and have to worry the least.

Claude Crockford use to wear a tie and jacket to work!!!

I agree you will find that most of the best Supers (whether they work at a high end club or not) are pretty proficient at all the day to day stuff hence thats why they are "the best supers" .  I personally have always felt that I needed the other stuff (professionalism/oratory/written word/management/image) in order to be the very best and at the end of the day achieve the things that I needed to in order to present a better course.

Probably getting away from Doaks original statement.   

"I've often said that the most talented superintendents out there are the ones at the smaller courses with 6 digit budgets maintaining well-conditioned courses."

I personally have no problem with it.  When your good your good whether its six digits or seven.  Its all about managing expectation.

 

 

[Scott Furlong]

Don,

If we go back to the first post by Kyle it’s an observation and an opinion.  I don’t know how to put the quote in my post but.

“I've often said that the most talented superintendents out there are the ones at the smaller courses with 6 digit budgets maintaining well-conditioned courses.” – Kyle Harris

He is right and wrong. 

“while the hot-shot managers will struggle when their budgets are cut 30% and they can't pay assistants to do all the work.” – Tom Doak’s friend

He is right and wrong.

As things change good Superintendents change.  It’s no different than any other business in the world and it’s no different than your own personal finances.  With the economy slipping my guess is the majority of society has gotten more conservative.  I know I have.  If a course has a crew of 30 and it is reduced to 20, good mangers will do what they have to do to get the job done.
 
Leo probably said it the best, “I personally have no problem with it.  When your good your good whether its six digits or seven.  It’s all about managing expectation.”

And you said it best, "I'm old school, but I think supers should know how to do every job on the course, and more importantly know how to teach someone to do it."

Old school or new school every Superintendent needs to know how to do everything on the course.

As for the guys losing jobs that sucks and there is not one Superintendent that hasn’t seen that happen in their area. 

By the sound of one of your responses I’m guessing you found our website promoting our internship program.  “PDI and all the rest of that wasted money was all about promoting the executive super with a dozen interns and a half-dozen multi pros.”  Yes we have interns and I’m very proud of every one of the guys that have gone through our program.  Believe it or not we don’t dress like that everyday it was a scholarship tournament to help young adults get through college, in turf or not in turf.  Only half of the guys in the picture are interns the others are Assistants and college kids.  The other picture shows 5 multi pros, 3 are ours and 2 are from the course down the street.  We thought it would be a cool picture.  Maybe you haven’t seen the website but your comments are exactly what the pictures show.  My point is; you can’t assume anything until you know the facts.  Get dirty or don’t get dirty, who cares.  Just get the job done.


I’m wearing boots with my khakis      



   

[Pat Brockwell]

The Supers that can deliver value will do just fine in any economy, same is true for Pros, cart jockeys, caddies and beverage cart gals.  When any employee loses touch with their priorities they are in danger.  I figure the way my COURSE appears makes the important statement, not whether my knees are muddy or my shoes are polished.