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Lance

George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« on: May 19, 2002, 05:07:23 PM »
Hi, I'm kinda new so I hope this isn't a dumb question, but I understood about 2 years ago that George Bahto was releasing a book on the golf courses of Seth Raynor. I have been looking all over the place for it but can't seem to find it! Was it ever published? I've played Fisher's Island and fell in love with the place-better than Pebble Beach IMO. Recently I played COLD SPRING which is listed as a Raynor course but is barely recognizable as such so i'd love to check out the Bahto book on the subject. Lance
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

nuzzo

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2002, 05:14:57 PM »
Sleeping bear press is publishing it this summer.
It was listed in their last mailer.
I can't wait either.
I hear the editing is excellent.
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Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2002, 06:26:19 PM »
Lance,
As nuzzo noted, it is being published by SBP and will be out soon. The title of the book is "The Evangelist of Golf" and it's focus is C.B. MacDonald although Raynor and eventually Banks figure into much of the writing. George is planning a second book to deal more exclusively with Raynor and Banks at a later date. He is also in need of a title for the second tome. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2002, 06:42:53 PM »
Lance: Cold Spring was the original OHEKA course of the great financier Otto Henry Kahn - the name taken from the  letters his name: O(tto) HE(nry) KA(hn). The course was a moderate Raynor. Kahn wanted to do all the bunkering himself - tracking guest's shots and placing bunkers there.  This man was an incredible character.

Bill Quirin's new book has a nice chapter on Otto (he saved the Metrpolitan Opera House among other things)

A few holes have been altered and starting point was changed.

Kahn's 129-room castle (his home) was encircled by the course and was set up so that when he came down the stairs (or at least one set of stairs) he was on the first tee.

Castle still there - or at least the beter part of it. Incredible
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2002, 07:22:48 PM »
George Bahto,

I believe OHEKA is open to the public.

I know the castle/home rents out for weddings/parties etc., etc..

The grounds, course and castle should be seen.  
I don't believe it's that far from Bethpage.
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George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2002, 07:43:42 PM »
Patrick:  the course is on Jericho Twpk and you have to take a different road to the castle (yes, now a catering facility run my Gary Mielius). They "restored" the first floor of the castle including he library (20' tall which originally held 10,000 of Kahn's books) - 120 or so servants on site also.

I think you can get on the course

The castle was the backdrop of parts of the movie Citizen Cane (it that spelled right?) - it was the second largest private home built in this country - a sight to behold.

He had a novel burglary protection unit in place ..... 2 or 3 panthers roaming the first floor in the off hours.

You know that greenhouse/gardencenter complex on Jericho? - that was his greenhouse and part of the property - he had fresh flowers placed throughout the castle daily - whether he was there or not.

Tons of great stories about this guy -

good reading: 2 or 3 bios about him in most libraries!!
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Gib_Papazian

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2002, 10:37:02 PM »
Jim,
You may buy the "Evangelist" right now - it will be available August 1st.

The 2nd book - focusing exclusively on NGLA - is done. The release date is next year.

A 3rd book - focusing on Raynor - is nearly complete.

Everyone is cordually invited to buy one for every single person on their X-mas list ;D
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Craig Rokke

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2002, 06:41:15 AM »
My copy was ordered a couple of weeks ago, and I'm
eagerly awaiting its delivery. Gib, can we look forward
to seeing the Fred Flintstone logo somewhere inside the dust jacket?  :)
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2002, 06:59:25 AM »
Gib,

Have yourself and George formalized plans on your trip to Northern Michigan yet.  I expect to be allowed to do some reciprical hosting.  

PS - How did you like your last trip to Long Island.  Were the Raynor's up to your expectations.
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2002, 03:16:56 PM »
Gib & George:
I'm not clear on why the third book (Raynor) is dealayed or maybe what the first book (Evangelist) is about?  I thought they are the same.
  
The book dedicated to NGLA is probably going to be a big seller (in golf terms) and smart to be seperated.
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George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2002, 05:02:26 PM »
Joel and others interested):

about the evolution of 3 books

Originally the book was to be one but I had uncovered so much interesting material the book would have either been cut too much thru editing or would have been so heavy you couldn't lift it     :P

so, I recently convinced the publisher it should be two books which they agreed to once they saw all my material.

The first book covers all Macdonald, introduces Raynor, of course, an continues with any course reviews CB may have even been remotely connected with.  Obviously there is much more to it than that simple explanation.

The second book was too be all the Raynor info and all the course reviews of his and Banks' courses (including all the new ones I turned up) and also the ones that were in the first book. Again much more than that.

The publisher asked me about adding another - sort of splitting some material from the original book - making a book just about NGLA - a club history of sorts.  There is a ton of material about NGLA never seen before but by a few visitors.  Very gracious of them, of course. I've been very fortunate.

So now we have books coming.

I'll field some questions if you like, guys   and thank you for your interest
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ian

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2002, 09:58:13 PM »
I look forward to reading your book, being from Toronto, I have had no exposure to either MacDonald or Raynor.
This I plan on changing this year.

What would be the closest MacDonald and the closest Raynor to me? Or what is the most logical first trip (Chicago 8hrs.? New York 9hrs.?).

I would like to find out more of how your course turned out too.

Ian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2002, 08:14:10 AM »
Ian:  Although Chicago is closer there would be so many more courses in the NY Met area so, to me, this is a brainer.
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Jeff_McDowell

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2002, 11:16:39 AM »
George,

Raynor did a number of courses in the Minneapolis area. Do any of these courses have enough of the typical Raynor features that make the course worth studying?

Thanks in advance

Jeff
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George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2002, 12:50:48 PM »
Jeff - the 3 courses in Minn should be looked at if you were interested in the Raynor architecture

Tom Doak's crew is or has been working at Minn Valley CC so what they are doing (or have done there) would be reflective on the Raynor style

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2002, 03:41:41 PM »
George,
Are you able to tell from looking, if a course was a CBM or a SR? How?
What do you think we'd be seeing from SR if he were working today?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: George Bahto's Seth Raynor book????
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2002, 06:05:41 PM »

Shooter, you asked; Are you able to tell from looking, if a course was a CBM or a SR? How?

Easy - CBM hardly built any outside of NGLA   ;D .....  he was "involved" in a few with input but most
were Raynor designs - even some of the big name courses. CB often helped with the layouts but left
details to SR.  A lot of clubs want CB's name attached to their course (this before all the Raynor material
has come out over the past few years. I visited a number of clubs early-on telling them about Raynor
designing their course .......... they looked at me with this blank stare 'cause they didn't know who he
even was - however all that has changed.

CB had a few pet projects (Mid-Ocean and such). He often helped with layouts at early courses and left
usually arguing with club management)

But back to your original thought:

I think the main difference in hole design by CB & SR is that Charlie's designs are considerably more
bold - like they pop you right between your eyes, daring you to challenge his hole.  A number of them at
Lido were like that - then also at Lido Raynor also was left to do a lot on his own.

There were a few holes at Gibson Island that were very bold (stuff I had not seen before anyplace
before) that shrieked of Macdonald.

I think the key is that, like most designers, a lot of their designs are a reflection of their own personalities:
Macdonald .....bold - brash - demanding - often uncompromising etc ....  while Seth's work was, like his
personality much more subdued.

I've most all of their remaining courses and you can sort of see their work under later modifications if you
know what to look for except when someone has come in and obliterated areas of the course.  The key,
often, is an original scorecard followed up by an early aerial.

Then you asked: What do you think we'd be seeing from SR if he were working today?  A change in style
to some extent but still keeping the basis of the great holes. I think there was a transition taking place in
the work of Raynor just before the time of his death. There is a difference in his early and later works
(again, like all other architects). Early Tillie is a good example as is early Emmet vs after he helped
Charlie at National.
 
CB said there were only about seven (?) of so basic strategies (if taken down to their lowest common
denominator) like Redans, Road holes etc. Whether he was correct or not I'll leave for others to argue
about but just think about a lot of today’s modern holes - they are often disguised with frills etc ....  but if
you look closely you can find many of those classic strategies CB used.   Pete Dye is an excellent
example of this as is Tom D. Gil  etal ....... the strategies are so pure you'd have to be a nut (ego????)
not to use some of them.

Again, we go back to "variations of great classic themes"
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