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Dan Herrmann

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Who designed Bethpage Black?
« on: April 27, 2009, 05:05:11 PM »
Simple question: Was it Tillie or somebody else?

Michael Dugger

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 05:22:22 PM »
You cannot possibly be serious in asking this question!!!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim Colton

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2009, 05:34:43 PM »
Let's ask Reesie!

David Stamm

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 07:09:52 PM »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Joe Bausch

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 07:18:10 PM »
Well, Dan, let's check out what the golfing authority Golf Digest has to say.   ;)

Joseph H. Burbeck & A.W. Tillinghast (1936)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Stamm

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 07:30:48 PM »
I can hear Young clearing his throat..... ;D
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Joe Bausch

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 07:34:36 PM »
I can hear Young clearing his throat..... ;D

DS, my post was meant specifically to bring out Phil!  I joined this web site long after the Burbeck/Tilly debates, but I'm hoping Phil Young and others will give a Readers Digest condensed version of the previous threads to educate me and others that I think are curious as well.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 07:38:22 PM »
I was actually refering to Tom MacWood's "IMO" piece, which sort-of questions Tillie's design credit (but validates it at its conlusion).  See http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opiniontmacwood415.html for the essay.

I thought the question was germaine due to the upcoming US Open and a similar (but reversed) discussion on Merion and its designer.


ed_getka

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 07:47:48 PM »
I never followed the Burbeck/Tillinghast debate closely, but it makes sense that Burbeck would have been the on-site guy and thus some could conclude he designed the course. Given the little I know about Burbeck I would think it would be very unlikely he could have designed a course of the caliber of the Black without more experience.
   I too look forward to hearing what Philip Young has to say as I am 2/3 of the way through his book. For those who haven't read it I recommend it most highly.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 07:56:07 PM »
I seem to recall, if one was to search the archives, that about 25 pages were devoted to this topic following the last U.S. Open at BPB.

And I also seem to recall after 25 pages of discussion, nobody really knew much more then they did in the beginning.

This Tillie/Burbeck/BPB thing is about as hotly contested as Macdonald/Wilson/Merion!!! ::)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2009, 07:57:32 PM »
Dan,

Methinks you're trying to divert the attention from Merion. ;D

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2009, 09:44:37 PM »
Hi Guys!

I recommend that all take a look at the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated as it details a number of classic Tilly design traits used at Bethpage Black.

The smoking gun proof that Tilly designed all three new courses at Bethpage is the 5th hole of the original Blue course, what is today the 12th hole of the Yellow. When it opened for play it was the ONLY hole in the entire complex to have been given a name... it was called in the Farmingdale Post of April 1935 "The famous REEF Hole."

This hole is most important because of the claims made by GD was that Tilly was NOT invovled from the beginning, yet this hole proves that he was. The clearing of the property of trees and brush began in late November of 1933 and actual work on the courses in January of 1934. The Blue course was the first course begun, followed by the Red and then the Black. The original Lenox Hills Golf Club (today's Green course) was redesigned and renovated mostly during the late summer/fall of 1934 to accomodate the new Black course. The 2nd hole of the Black course actually plays across what was the 18th hole of the Lenox Hills course and the original first hole was actually left of thet and close by Round Swamp Road. The original clubhouse was on the spot where the modern Superintendent's house is and the first tee was nearby with the green site down and directly left of where today's second tee is.

Since GD made their tremendous blunder numerous further proofs of Tilly as the designer of all the courses have been found and passed along to the powers that be at the magazine. Unfortunately they are stuck in a trap of their own making and are unable to admit the mistake made.

Joe, you stated, "Well, Dan, let's check out what the golfing authority Golf Digest has to say..." The real question is WHO does GD list as the ARCHITECT of the Bethpage Blue and Bethpage Red courses? Simply type in those on their website and what comes up... A.W. Tillinghast! No mention of Mr. Burbeck... Despite it being 7 years since they first made the claim they still recognize that Burbeck ONLY designed the Black!?!

But that subtlety is simply beyond them I guess...

Joseph Burbeck NEVER claimed to have deisgned anything at Bethpage all the way till his death. Not a single time while he was employed by N.Y. State, not after his retirement and never to his family. In fact Golf Digest even reported that Burbeck's son, who is the person who made the claim that GD followed up, stated that not only had his father never claimed being the designer but that he specifically told his son that he hadn't!

Before one can even give consideration to the idea that Mr. Burbeck DESIGNED Bethpage Black they have to realize what he was DOING during the time the courses were being designed and built.

As the representative on-site for the State Park Commission & Long Island Park Commission, his job was to manage a large public park, a golf course and pro shop, create and train a caddy service, oversee the contractor's designing and building new roads, electrical, telephone, sewer and plumbing infrastructures, the largest clubhouse of its type in New York State up to that time, a huge parking lot, tennis courts, polo fields, football field and stadium, baseball field and stadium, picnic areas and play areas...

Yet he somehow had the time "at night" to design THREE NEW GOLF COURSES?

Question... Name the golf architects who had BOTH designed and oversaw the complete construction of TWO NEW golf courses at the same time for a single club before 1934... Yet Joseph Burbeck was being asked to do ALL of the above and then design THREE new courses and redsign a fourth and oversee all aspects of the construction at the same time!?! That is beyond ludicrous...

WHY was Tilly chosen for this job? Before you quickly say that he was logical as no architects had work, consider carefully what I just mentioned above. It is true that Tilly needed the work, but he was NOT anywhere near bankruptcy as has been alleged incorrectly in the past. In fact, he bought his Harrington park home in 1930, a year after the market crash. He also built ANOTHER house on the property directly behind his at this time which he gave as a gift to his daughter and her family. That's a pretty neat trick when one is nearly bankrupt...

No, Tilly was PRIMARILY chosen because he was the most experienced multi-course designer and builder in the world. Consider just in the local area how he designed and built 36 holeds at Baltusrol while keeping 18 existing open for play! He designed 36 holes for Winged Foot and 27 for a number of others including Ridgewood, Fenimore (Fenway), the Anglo-American Club in Lac Lachigan Quebec and Fort Sam Houston in Texas. He had designed 36 for the Philadelphia Cricket Club and 5 Farms even though only 18 would be built at each.   

There wasn't a single architect then or since who had even close to his experience handling large design projects of 36 holes... and Bethpage was to be 54 and another 18 redesigned! Who today has multi-course projects on a single site to their credit where ALL of the courses were designed AND built at the SAME TIME!

In addition to the above there is the use of many classic Tilly hole types and, though many have convinced themselves otherwise, the green complexes are pure Tilly. Throughout Bethpage the majority of greens are NOT push-up but rather rise naturally out from the fairway entrances.

There are numerous articles, book mentions and newspaper accounts contemporary to Bethpage's construction and in the year's immediately following which credit Tilly as the designer of the courses.

Finally, and this truly is the VERY bare bones and SHORT version, just as Burbeck has his memories of his father working at Bethpage when he was 4 years old, Tilly's grand-daughter Barbara also remembers being on site with him as a 6 year-old. I'll take a 6 year-olds memories over someone who was 4 any day!  ;D

Feel free to ask away... I can't promise that I'll be able to keep up, but I'll give it a try...
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 10:14:41 AM by Philip Young »

Sam Maryland

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 09:40:25 AM »
I was there over the weekend and the one significant change I noticed from last year is all the trees to the left of #1 have been taken down, zero trees on the left anymore.  Looked like they thinned out the trees to the right of #1 a lot too.  FYI.  (and greens are in great shape!)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 09:41:45 AM »
Dan,

Methinks you're trying to divert the attention from Merion. ;D

Moi?  ;)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 10:04:30 AM »
Sam,

Did you notice the greens (other than the obvious #14) that have been enlarged by recovering original putting surfaces?  ;D

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2009, 10:32:42 AM »
Phillip,

Partial redesign of the Green Course.  Because if it was a full redesign, he started building greens and green side bunkering alot like Devereux Emmet.

Chris

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2009, 11:00:54 PM »
Chris,

Do you know how much of the Bethpage Golf Club (the original Lenox Hills course) was worked on and changed at the time the three new courses were designed, built and opened between 1934-36? More work was done on it than most are aware of.

Consider carefully the green complexes and how there are actually two very different styles to them. With holes 1 & 18 brand new, 2, 6, 9, 10, 11 & 12 are quite different from 4, 5, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16 &17. The first set are primarily push-up greens while the others all rise naturally from the fairways. Two distinctly different styles...

Other than that there are only hints as to the work done on the course. There are almost no contemporary photos of the Lenox Hills/Bethpage Golf Club course anywhere including in the Bethpage/NY State archives from the 1920's to 1934 era or the Green course itself up until the 1950's.

This means that the tees, bunkers and putting surfaces themselves underwent over 75 years of evolutionary changes caused by poor maintenance, damage and in-house changing (work was done on the course during the 1960's & 1980's that I know of), with the possibility that holes 7 through 10 underwent complete redesigns from some documents I've seen. Holes 15 & 16 also most certainly also underwent changes resulting from the routing of holes 2-4 on the Black.

The 17th has undergone numerous changes over the years as the drainage pond right of the hole and the brook leading from it to the larger drainage pond left of the hole were replaced first with sand and then removed entirely in the 1980's. There is also reason to believe that the small and large drainage ponds and brook at 17 were added during the renovations to the course in 1934.

I bring all of that up because it is nearly impossible to identify specific Emmet design features today because nothing was ever documented. It is a shame because I have a foondness for the course dating back to the first time I played it in 1967.

Guys, I'm a bit disappointed as a number of posts mentioned getting me out on this discussion and after I do only Chris had a comment...

I couldn't have been that persuasive in the short bit I wrote...  ;D

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 11:23:51 PM »
Chris,

Do you know how much of the Bethpage Golf Club (the original Lenox Hills course) was worked on and changed at the time the three new courses were designed, built and opened between 1934-36? More work was done on it than most are aware of.

Consider carefully the green complexes and how there are actually two very different styles to them. With holes 1 & 18 brand new, 2, 6, 9, 10, 11 & 12 are quite different from 4, 5, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16 &17. The first set are primarily push-up greens while the others all rise naturally from the fairways. Two distinctly different styles...

Other than that there are only hints as to the work done on the course. There are almost no contemporary photos of the Lenox Hills/Bethpage Golf Club course anywhere including in the Bethpage/NY State archives from the 1920's to 1934 era or the Green course itself up until the 1950's.

This means that the tees, bunkers and putting surfaces themselves underwent over 75 years of evolutionary changes caused by poor maintenance, damage and in-house changing (work was done on the course during the 1960's & 1980's that I know of), with the possibility that holes 7 through 10 underwent complete redesigns from some documents I've seen. Holes 15 & 16 also most certainly also underwent changes resulting from the routing of holes 2-4 on the Black.

The 17th has undergone numerous changes over the years as the drainage pond right of the hole and the brook leading from it to the larger drainage pond left of the hole were replaced first with sand and then removed entirely in the 1980's. There is also reason to believe that the small and large drainage ponds and brook at 17 were added during the renovations to the course in 1934.

I bring all of that up because it is nearly impossible to identify specific Emmet design features today because nothing was ever documented. It is a shame because I have a foondness for the course dating back to the first time I played it in 1967.

Guys, I'm a bit disappointed as a number of posts mentioned getting me out on this discussion and after I do only Chris had a comment...

I couldn't have been that persuasive in the short bit I wrote...  ;D

Phillip,

I don't care abou Bethpage Black, I don't claim to be a Tillinghast expert, but I do know a heck of a lot about Emmet, I am also confident I have played and studied more Emmet courses than you have!!.  I am aware that 1 and 18 are not Emmet.  Of your second set of greens you mentioned, I agree that 2 and 9 are different, I DO NOT AGREE AT ALL ON YOUR ASSESMENT on greens 10, 11 and 12 being radically different - no way.  Also it is possible to identify Emmet features, if you have played many of his original courses and studied his green contours.  I will leave it at that.

Chris



Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 03:42:40 AM »
Hi Chris,

I am quite certain that you probably have played far more Emmet courses than I have!  ;D

Please read again what I wrote about the predominantly two different types of green complexes on the course. 10, 11 & 12 are quite similar to 2, 6 & 9 as they are pushed up from the surrpunding terrain. These are quite different from how 4, 5, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 16 &17 flow naturally out of the fairway fronting them. They really do give the appearance of two different hands on them for that reason alone.

My point in bringing it out was simply to give examples of POSSIBLE course changes made in 1934-36. That changes were made we know... what the extent of them were we don't. For example, I have come across information that implies that the 10th green has been completely redone on at least two occasions, yet there isn't any official documentation to back that up.


DMoriarty

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 03:59:28 AM »
Wait a minute?   You guys get to use Tillie hole concepts and Emmett-type features to prove what they did??

Man, you guys have it easy!

I've got bona fide CBM template holes, an eden green, and the rest of a course reportedly modeled on holes that Wilson had not even seen!  I've even got Findlay writing that Macdonald laid out the holes, and Phil telling us that he meant it. 

Yet I am nowhere.   Must be my fault.  A failure to communicate.

Cheers. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Who designed Bethpage Black?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 07:29:23 AM »
Phillip,

We can agree to disagree as 10, 11 and 12 remind me of other Emmet (one t) greens I have played.  I have played Emmet courses where his greens have been constructed in both manners you describe.

DMoriarty

No one is going to mistake Bethpage Green for either of the Merion courses and as far as I know no one is questioning that Devereux Emmet designed the Green and that there is still a lot of Emmet still there.

Chris