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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2009, 03:26:38 PM »
Almost every time I play a great unheard of course in Scotland it turns out James Braid had a hand in it.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2009, 03:37:38 PM »
Almost every time I play a great unheard of course in Scotland it turns out James Braid had a hand in it.
That is so true.  Often the same with Colt in England.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2009, 03:44:32 PM »
All,

Melvyn sent me a ton of useful if not obscure knowledge via an email.  I hereby denounce my own post regarding Donald Ross.  In the pilot world that's called "disregarding yourself". 

Old Tom is the man!

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2009, 04:24:34 PM »
Ben,
being 'Morrow-ed' by email is one of life's little pleasures and should happen to every GCAer at least once in his posting career.

I, to my great delight, have seen things which have more than crowded my child's fragile eggshell mind and which have made me a better, if not indeed a wiser, man.

MM, like the Spruce Goose, is a Rara avis indeed. (Sorry for the painful aviational reference!) ;D

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Anthony Gray

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2009, 04:28:39 PM »
All,

Melvyn sent me a ton of useful if not obscure knowledge via an email.  I hereby denounce my own post regarding Donald Ross.  In the pilot world that's called "disregarding yourself". 

Old Tom is the man!

  Ben,

  You're just getting started. Wait until Garland starts to IM you his baby pictures.

  Anthony


Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2009, 04:31:27 PM »
Braid had a gift of being able to extract every ounce of golfing fun out of a piece of landscape.

The King's!  YUM!

...and he had a great moustache too.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2009, 05:51:49 PM »
Almost every time I play a great unheard of course in Scotland it turns out James Braid had a hand in it.

Not to mention Pennard in Wales.   The old boy got around!

When you play Elie where Braid grew up, you get a feel for how he learned to play and what he liked in golf design.

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2009, 06:09:16 PM »
Who was/is the greatest Scottish golf course architect?
Can there be only one?

Some are saying OTM, but was he not more of a designer than an architect? Or am I quibbling over semantics?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2009, 06:54:52 PM »

Scott

Quibbling away. 

I fear we use the word architect in golf when we should use Designer. The word Architect, for me describes more the construction part of the design build process.  A Jack of all trade but a Master of none is my view on design build architects against a Designers who is there for his specific speciality.

But the 19th Century guys also embraced both within the limits available to them and their time period.

Melvyn

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2009, 09:16:04 PM »
Melvyn,

Under that definiton of Architect/Designer is Willie Park Jr the first Architect, and Braid et al more easily defined as designers as they (to my admittedly limited knowledge) were more apt to work with what nature had provided.

I nominate Park as the definition's architect as I have played Huntercombe and what is seen there is most definitely construction.

Was anyone else doing similar construction prior to this (1901) ?

I believe Colt was after such a date.  Although I see he was involved at Rye in 1895.  So is Park just the first Scottish Architect, following Colt's English Architect?


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2009, 02:11:37 AM »


I nominate Park as the definition's architect as I have played Huntercombe and what is seen there is most definitely construction.



Thank you Sean I've been trying to get that message about Huntercombe over to  a couple of posters on here.

I sort of get your split but Im not sure it's that clear cut.  I feel pretty sure Melvyn knows of tees and greens that OTM had constructed e.g. 18th on  the Old Course to his desines.  Similarly the first hard evidence for Colt as an Architect by this defintion might not be until Swinley arond 1909.


Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2009, 07:00:52 AM »
Tom,

I still am a big champion of it.  Absolutely love it, still think it is world class and think it will be even better when the changes are done. I think it has received a lot of unfair press. I think it belongs in the Top 100 courses of the world.

However, is it great in the eyes of everyone else?

Brian,

Exactly what changes are being done ?

Niall

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2009, 09:36:02 AM »
Goeff Shackelford's Grounds for Golf says Alister Mackenzie raised in the Scottish Highlands!  ???

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2009, 10:11:54 AM »
Designer/Architect or Architect/Designer.

Who was first, who was the best – why do we keep doing this to the great names of golf? Each in their own right deserves respect. Yes some did shine out brighter than others, but does that diminish the work undertaken by those lesser know course designers. No, IMHO it does not.

We briefly mentioned James Braid in an earlier post, but I believe we must give him the credit for what he actually did for Golf and golf course design. His attitude seems to reflect the old adage "If it's not broke, don't fix it" by studying the course he realised that certain holes and fairways still offered the fun and challenge required, so left well alone. Perhaps he may have moved the Tees back a few yards to accommodate the new ball. Other Designers decided to place their mark on the course, some succeeded but some failed. In failing, they destroyed the quality of the original course and its history.

The ability to strip the soil back to bedrock and relay a Luna or a Chocolate Box landscape does not necessary guarantee a good course. Throwing vast sums of money at a site is acceptable (but thanks to the credit crunch, it may become a thing of the past). I feel that we have forgotten the nature of designing golf courses. It is not all about construction, drainage and remodelling, it is first and foremost about the course and the land it sit on and is surrounded by. Without that balance what chance has the designer got to weave his magic.

Perhaps I differ from most modern golfers in that I do not believe that golf is about distance. It was and should be about the challenge of manoeuvring your ball around the hazards and terrain of the course. The development of basic skills needed to combat the designer’s traps. Why have we Par 3’s if its all about the long air shot, why have blind spots, why deep bunkers if not to test the golfer.  I have no problem hitting a side or rear shot to escape a deep bunker but from what I read on here, it appears to be a NO, NO or frowned upon in the States – maybe seen as retreat. However, it’s not a retreat it’s circumnavigating the course, because you fell into one of its traps. The mental game that seemed once so much part of the game but which now appears to have more or less evaporated away in favour of the HE-MAN, the Long hitter or perhaps more appropriate The Hulk. ;)

Wow, you can hit a long ball, big deal, but how’s your basic skills, can you see the traps, the hazards waiting for you on the course or have they also been watered down to give the modern golfer a better score. I hear many saying that certain courses are just too hard, would that be because the others are just too easy and we have become accustomed to the easy life.

I am afraid I do not have the answer, but as I have said before the answer is in the hands of the Designers. After all, it’s your name that is associated with the course. Have we forgotten the fun and challenge that we are meant to face when playing golf or have we as just accepted that golf like life should be made easier?  >:( >:(

Some on here have said it’s more important to play 18 holes quickly before they loose the light (after work) than to enjoy a good 9 holes at their own pace. For me that’s like saying the working day stops after the mad hectic round of golf – just does not make sense to me. Just find it hard at times to believe that others don’t feel the same way about the game. Is it really progress? :'( :'(

Melvyn


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2009, 12:29:19 PM »
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 12:33:22 PM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2009, 01:03:41 PM »

Pat

There is one thing that we agree upon at last - Yes  “I would rather you play in Milwaukee too “.

Yet again, the Pro’s show their greed and prove that they do not play golf for fun or the challenge but just money. But then if I felt like them, knowing that I had, in real terms, very little chance of winning any money I might decide to play a home game with a chance of some big bucks.

Well just think, most of the competition are away playing The Open – these guys are not stupid but I will agree that they are showing considerable greed. Real Ambassadors for the game – I think not but certainly  something to hide from our children.

But then that just my opinion

Melvyn



RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2009, 01:10:44 PM »
While not in the pantheon of designers of 'world class' golf courses, a Scottish designer of perhaps the most golf courses in the U.S., making golf virtually an exported Scottish recreational/cultural phenomenon - Mr. Tom Bendelow.

I agree with Melvyn about the futility to say, who was first, best, etc.  But, who was most influential and effective at spreading the game of golf to the masses here in U.S. while never forgetting his Scottish cultural roots, I'd make a case for the other "old Tom".  ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2009, 01:24:50 PM »
But, since this got sidetracked to Jerry Kelly not playing the Open this year, now that he qualified...  I must defend my hometown boy on the point of it merely being a greed factor of opportunity to make a few more $$$.  ;) ;D

Like Kenny Perry last year, it has nothing to do with $$$.   It is all about commitment to people that support you, and rely on your word to support their struggling side show tournament.  First, I really don't think they should have a PGA tournament the same week as a major.  But that aside, last year Kenny Perry set his own goals to work up to what he believed was his true calling (to play in the Ryder cup in his home State of Kentucky) and do everything that made sense to him to prepare.  And, he previously (before he had the unexpected success of some wins) made his personal commitment to Milwaukee to participate, which obviously lent his new found winning reputation to last years otherwise side show, second rate to a major, event. 

Similarly, Jerry Kelly is all about his home town roots, with no illusion he is going to seriously have a place at the table of top world tourning pros, and on the world majors stage.  He is a work-a-day pro that had some success, and loves his hometown and State of WI roots.  He is also the solid type of fellow that keeps his commitments to his supporters at home.  So, he is making the decision to stay and support the struggling Milwaukee open in its intenable slot up against the Open Major of that week.  I guarantee you that many more people will come out here in WI to see Jerry play in Milwaukee and applaud him, than would turn out for the event if he didn't play here. 

I am not sure if Kelly ever made it to the Open, in previous years, when he qualified on his previous two wins. 

Like Kenny Perry has done this year, after fullfilling his commitment last year to Milwaukee, he made the compromise to play this year at the Open.  I hope Jerry Kelly has the chance to do both as well.  And I hope Perry wins at Turnberry (long shot that is!) 

But, no way is Kelly looking at $$$, just home town pride, as big as Melvyn's home Scottish pride.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2009, 01:42:29 PM »

Pat

There is one thing that we agree upon at last - Yes  “I would rather you play in Milwaukee too “.

Yet again, the Pro’s show their greed and prove that they do not play golf for fun or the challenge but just money. But then if I felt like them, knowing that I had, in real terms, very little chance of winning any money I might decide to play a home game with a chance of some big bucks.

Well just think, most of the competition are away playing The Open – these guys are not stupid but I will agree that they are showing considerable greed. Real Ambassadors for the game – I think not but certainly  something to hide from our children.

But then that just my opinion

Melvyn




I doubt it is greed that is pulling Jerry away from your native land. As RJ states, it's probably his considerable enjoyment of his local tournament and by the fact that Wisconsin Brats are far better than any food found in Scotland  ;)
H.P.S.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2009, 01:45:47 PM »
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column/moe//448853

This is fairly insightful on Kelly's nature and how the hometown folks think of him.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2009, 01:51:28 PM »

Mr Daley
I am willing to bow to your greater knowledge re golf and stand corrected.

Pat C.
Regards the food – you have never lived until you have had an Arbroath smokie, nearly better than sex, actually better just after sex.

Melvyn

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2009, 03:01:23 PM »
Quote
I am willing to bow to your greater knowledge re golf and stand corrected.

Now Melvyn, that is going way out on a limb that is unsupportable.  There is no way I have greater knowledge of 'golf'.  :o  I just may have a bit more insight about that fellow JK being he is a hometown kid and I know folks that know him. 

And, I'd be delighted to try the Arbroath Smokie, because frankly the traditional Sheboygan brat is becoming rather hard to find, and I'm getting sick of the usual tube steak fare that is being served up as traditional brats lately. 

Melvyn, you must come to the States for the Oregon coast and Sand Hills golf.   And, about these smokies, it is clear that the Native Americans along the Pac Northwest coast have been doing their versions of smokies for centuries. 

Scottish
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/mostof_smokies.shtml

Native Americans
http://www.justsmokedsalmon.com/index.htm
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rich Goodale

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2009, 05:28:30 PM »
Goeff Shackelford's Grounds for Golf says Alister Mackenzie raised in the Scottish Highlands!  ???

Geoff Shackleford human.  Mackenzie not.  Geoff says so.

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