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jeffwarne

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Should a course's architecture be judged by
« on: March 27, 2009, 08:49:45 AM »
The amount of good/great players it produces?
Anecdotally, it seems more good/great players are produced on less difficult (at least off the tee)traditional courses.
Is that because there are more of them?
or because the learn to swing freely without fear of negative consequences?

Or is it because the courses are user friendly enough to keep a kid's interest long enough to develop some skill?

If I grew up at TPC Sawgrass, I'd be a high school basketball coach now.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 08:53:40 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Anthony Gray

Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 09:14:54 AM »


  Very thought provoking.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 10:23:32 AM »
Jeff:

That's an interesting question.  I was always biased the other way because Jack Nicklaus grew up at Scioto, but that's just ONE example, and perhaps the exception rather than the rule.

Still, to make an accurate analysis, you'd have to consider that there are 16,000 potential courses in the USA to grow up on, and only 100-200 that ever make a list of great courses -- so do more than one or two great players out of every 160 grow up on an outstanding course?

And even after that, you could make arguments either way about whether growing up in a family that has the means to belong to one of those great courses is an advantage in going toward the Tour, or a disadvantage because the kid won't be hungry enough.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 10:32:11 AM »
While I haven't played the course, everything I've read and seen in pictures is that Tigers home course in Cypress, CA is your typical Doak Scale 1-2 ho-hum muni.  If a player such as Tiger can learn the game on a course like that, then I'm not sure the course makes much different.  It probably has more to do with what type of lessons/training/upbringing/natural talent the individual has.

One thing I do agree with is the notion that a 7 capper who regulary plays on an easy course will not be the same as a 7 capper who plays most his golf on a tough course.

TEPaul

Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 10:41:10 AM »
Jeff:

It seems to me from my experiences in golf and amateur golf administration that golf clubs that produce an inordinate amount of good players do so not because of or even as a result of their course's architecture or difficulty but because they generally put in place some kind of program to develop good players, the most common being good junior golfer development programs.

The club in my area that has done that the best and for many many decades is without question Huntingdon Valley GC but they were by no means the only one.

In my area this kind of thing can also be perfectly tracked through the collected competitive records of what's known as The Suburban League Matches (formerly the GAP Team Matches) that have been going on for over a century. I believe that HVGC's winning record is unmatched.

But what about the architecture of HVGC even given their consistent support of a really powerful junior program through the years? We've always said throughout the years the HVGC top golfers have always been the best "shot-makers" in this district because they get so few level lies on that golf course!  ;)

And then there's Overbrook GC around here that has always had an inordinate amount of really good players in fairly modern times. They say around here it's about as hard to win the Overbrook club championship as it is the Philadelphia Amateur.   8)

And what is it about Overbrook's golf course that might standout to make the course produce a plethora of really good players? It is pretty tight and it definitely requires an unusual amount of accuracy!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 10:49:37 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 10:43:31 AM »
TEP says:

"It seems to me from my experiences in golf and amateur golf administration that golf clubs that produce an inordinate amount of good players do so not because of or even as a result of their course's architecture or difficulty but because they generally put in place some kind of program to develop good players, the most common being good junior golfer development programs."

I think that is right. The number of good young players at a club is more function of the club culture and less a function of golf architecture.

Bob

JMEvensky

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 10:52:01 AM »
TEP says:

"It seems to me from my experiences in golf and amateur golf administration that golf clubs that produce an inordinate amount of good players do so not because of or even as a result of their course's architecture or difficulty but because they generally put in place some kind of program to develop good players, the most common being good junior golfer development programs."

I think that is right. The number of good young players at a club is more function of the club culture and less a function of golf architecture.

Bob


I'll bring up a possible exception which is no longer valid.

Growing up in the 60's/70's,"straightness" was much more valuable.The best players in town always came from the club with the smallest greens and narrowest fairways.

I still play with a lot of those guys and they still hit it straight.


jeffwarne

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 10:54:12 AM »
Jeff:

That's an interesting question.  I was always biased the other way because Jack Nicklaus grew up at Scioto, but that's just ONE example, and perhaps the exception rather than the rule.

Still, to make an accurate analysis, you'd have to consider that there are 16,000 potential courses in the USA to grow up on, and only 100-200 that ever make a list of great courses -- so do more than one or two great players out of every 160 grow up on an outstanding course?

And even after that, you could make arguments either way about whether growing up in a family that has the means to belong to one of those great courses is an advantage in going toward the Tour, or a disadvantage because the kid won't be hungry enough.

Tom,
I haven't played Scioto, but I gather it's an old traditional northeast Ross course, not dissimilar to Augusta CC where  I grew up.
I would think such a course would be a great place to grow up with room to find it, yet difficult short game options.
And frankly I wasn't really meaning great as in Jack Nicklaus or Tiger Woods, but more in a good level amateur and up say 2 handicap and below to include tour players.

It just seems courses loaded with OB and water wouldn't produce free swingers-but maybe they simply grow up blocking it all out.
It certainly isn't fun to play a game where you're constantly losing balls when learning.
The other problem with modern courses is they are mostly very tough to walk and that's hard , esp. on younger kids who may seldom play unless their parents are providing a cart and with them. (and nobody's getting better if they only play when their parents are available)

In my opinion the best enviroment is a working family with enough money to afford golf(at least access), but not so wealthy that the kid is not hungry and everything comes easy (which I see all the time).
But that's got little to do with architecture.


No doubt it's the club's culture and juniour program that matters most, but that's not the discussion here.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brent Hutto

Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 10:55:55 AM »
I've always heard that good players develop from being around and playing with good players. Presumably a young person who can frequently get a game with some seriously good older players has an advantage.

So wouldn't that convert Jeff's question, in part, to whether there are more seriously good players hanging around the best courses than the ho-hum ones? It would make sense if the real sticks congregate at the great courses then youngsters at those great courses would have an advantage. But it not be (directly) from exposure to architectural features.

But I'm not sure I'd buy that indirect argument either. In this country there's a tendency for great courses to require money and family connections rather than playing skill, of course with a few obvious exceptions on either end.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 11:20:25 AM »
In that regard:

Look at Australia, the amount of world class players they have is in part due to the Australian sport culture but the golf courses they play on definitely help them get better... If you grow up in Melbourne and play all those courses as a kid, you would develop a shot palette that would definitely be greater than most.

For the same reason:
The Province of Quebec hasn't produce a tour player since 1935 (any tour that is European, Nationwide or PGA Tour) partly because of how weak are our courses... You might play golf all you life in Quebec without ever seeing a runaway green!!!
Most people at home blame the climate; my answer to that is: well, look at the amount of Swedish players.

I don't think you can judge architecture only with that criteria... because you can have the Marine Drive GC effect (Vancouver CANADA). Sometimes great players come all from the same club (Nelford, Zokol, Rick Gibson (I think) and Rutledge) because they start competing against each other and they raise their game.

Nothing beat the dynamic of 5-6 teens with a lot of time and a passion for the game to produce great players.

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 11:43:33 AM »
Having recently seen Augusta CC, I would give it "outlier" status for its exceptional junior program. They have something like 16 "junior" members who are currently playing (or have signed letters of intent) division I college golf. During the two afternoons we spent at the club, I saw dozens of junior golfers around the ample practice area and driving range. It was quite a sight. There is even a separate clubhouse for them.

It must be a combination of many things: 1. warm southern, year-round climate. 2. it's the one city in the south where golf is equally cool, if not more so, than football. (It doesn't hurt that a nine-year-old boy would see Tiger Woods play in the Masters every year.) 3. it is a family club with pro-junior policy, led by its charismatic head professional and his staff. 4. and yes, architecturally, the course is very intriguing, so the kids find elements of it very compelling.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 12:05:42 PM »
Philippe,

Not that it's necessarily a huge factor, but I don't think that you can ignore that golf in Melbourne and Vancouver is year-round as well.
jeffmingay.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 12:09:36 PM »
While I haven't played the course, everything I've read and seen in pictures is that Tigers home course in Cypress, CA is your typical Doak Scale 1-2 ho-hum muni.  If a player such as Tiger can learn the game on a course like that, then I'm not sure the course makes much different.  It probably has more to do with what type of lessons/training/upbringing/natural talent the individual has.

Last sentence is important, IMO. I have read both Earl and Tiger saying that unless it was a tournament, even as a kid, Tiger didn't play too much. He loved to practice and spent a heap of time on the range of practicing his short game.

The course obviously plays a role, but with Tiger playing world junior events before he was 10, he was seeing plenty of good golf courses without being a member of one.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 12:24:37 PM »
I know Jeff, golf year round helps but it's not an excuse for nordic countries, Sweden, Danemark, Norway even Finland has more world rank players than Canada.

After Weir and Ames (although he didn't grew up in Canada), the highest ranked Canadian is Wes Heffernan or Jon Mills I think, somewhere around 400th rank player in the World.

Australia ratio of world rank (top 400) player per capita is probably the highest... the quality of their course must have something to do with this,

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 12:30:15 PM »
Australia ratio of world rank (top 400) player per capita is probably the highest... the quality of their course must have something to do with this,

I'd like to think so, too, Philippe.
jeffmingay.com

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 12:30:32 PM »
Australia ratio of world rank (top 400) player per capita is probably the highest... the quality of their course must have something to do with this,

It probably does, but I would suggest the affordability of golf in Australia, especially as a junior, is more significant. As well as the number of competitive opportunities offered from a very young age by such organisations as the Jack Newton Junior Golf Foundation in NSW and its equivilents in other states.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:32:07 PM by Scott Warren »

Dale Jackson

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009, 01:39:35 PM »
Philippe, both Rick Gibson and Jim Rutledge grew up playing Cedar Hill, a 5,100 yard muni in Victoria.  That course has produced more good golfers than all the other courses in town combined.  The reasons are threefold IMHO.

1. As already noted, a bunch of kids hanging out together fosters a great environment, and Cedar Hill has great policies for juniors.

2. Because it is short, it places a premium on the short game and those are skills that all great golfers need, and seem most easily learned when young.

3.  And something not mentioned in this thread, players get used to going low, they become quite comfortable with being several strokes under par and that is not always the case with more difficult courses.

BTW, any mention of great golfers and Marine Drive has to mention Doug Roxburgh, the greatist amateur golfer Cananda has ever produced.
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 04:13:29 PM »
Dale,

Great post.

I particularly like point #3. I read this somewhere about Weir playing some course in and around Sarnia, while growing up, that sounds similar to Cedar Hill. It might have been Rubenstein who wrote that this particular course allowed Mike to get used to being "under par". This is a very interesting point.

One of my favourite pieces of Marine Drive GC history is that Richard Zokol - a two-time winner on the PGA Tour; captain of an NCAA winning team, at BYU; and Canadian Amateur champ. - never won the club championship, there. And, not because he didn't try. He did, many times, and was beat!
jeffmingay.com

Adam Russell

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 04:18:58 PM »
2. it's the one city in the south where golf is equally cool, if not more so, than football.

Whoa, wait a second, let's not get ahead of ourselves here! This is a place that's close proximity to a certain idyllic small town with a bit of a college football problem. 

But I'm with you on your other points... ;)
The only way that I could figure they could improve upon Coca-Cola, one of life's most delightful elixirs, which studies prove will heal the sick and occasionally raise the dead, is to put rum or bourbon in it.” -Lewis Grizzard

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 10:53:44 PM »
Two of the best amateur players in CT--Bill Hermanson and Bill (?) Hedden--both play out of Black Hall Club, which is relentlessly exacting off the tee, which by the system of the OP should give it more appreciation than it currently receives.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

PThomas

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Re: Should a course's architecture be judged by
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2009, 10:58:44 PM »
on a somewhat related note , Texas sure has produced a lot of great golfers...Nelson, Hogan and Trevino for ex......perhaps playing in Texas winds helps??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!