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Mike_Cirba

What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« on: January 19, 2009, 07:56:01 PM »
Is there any record of what A.W. Tillinghast did at Seaview?

We know he wrote about the course when it opened and was mostly praiseworthy while suggesting a few things he'd like to see changed like the punchbowl 5th green.

I'm confused because Cornish & Whitten's book has a reference that TIllinghast did a (R) at some unspecified date, yet I've seen no other information, including in Phil Young's very comprehensive book.

However, George Thomas's 1927 book has the following picture of Tilly's disliked 5th green, which leads to a number of observations and additional questions;




First, anyone who has followed the Seaview thread knows that the course was originally designed by Hugh Wilson in 1913/14, with additional changes suggested by Donald Ross around 1915, many of which were seemingly never implemented so it's curious that Thomas's book cites the course as a "Ross". 

Furthermore, it's interesting to see the citation "Wilson-Tillinghast", as if they did it together.

Does anyone who has the book know if Thomas linked other architects together like this in his captions, and/or know what it might have meant?  Was it shorthand for a comma, citing different work at different times, or did it usually mean work done as a team?   I'd love to know if Hugh Wilson came back and worked with Tillinghast at some point to implement changes sometime after 1915.  

Also, it mentions that other changes were done by "Robinson".   Is anyone aware of an architect with that last name before 1927?   

Was Ted around back then?    ;D
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 07:58:23 PM by MikeCirba »

Joe Bausch

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 08:26:14 PM »
According to the Tillinghast web site, he did an 'examination' of Seaview.  Which is the same amount Tilly did for Philmont North.  Which means he didn't do too much, I think.  Of course, we know Flynn did most of the work at Philmont.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 04:07:43 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 08:54:26 PM »
According to the Tillinghast web site, he did an 'examination' of Seaview.  Which is the same amount Tilly did for Philmont North.  Which means he didn't do too much, I think.  Of course, we know Flynn did most the work at Philmont.  ;)

Joe,

The fact that both George Thomas and Cornish/Whitten gave Tillinghast credit for more at Seaview leads me to wonder if there isn't something more that was done.

Tillinghast was the referee of the highly-publicized January 1915 opening day match at Seaview that featured Jerome Travers and Chick Evans, along with many local luminaries.   He was also friends with Clarence Geist from back in their Atlantic City days and the fact that Ross was brought in during the spring of 1915 was probably mostly indicative of Tillinghast's career really just beginning to be launched around that time.   Another year or two later and one wonders if Geist might have selected Tillinghast for the project, but that's pure speculation. 


Dave Maberry

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 09:06:03 PM »
Mike,
  The Wilson-Tillinghast type reference(hyphenated) does not show up anywhere else in "Golf Architecture in America"
  "The Architects of Golf" lists it as a Ross remodel(1915) with revisions by Tillinghast, David and William Gordon and Al Janis.
Dave


Kyle Harris

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 09:10:06 PM »
Dave, et al.,

One thing I've noticed about "The Architects of Golf" is their difficulty at times in distinguishing between courses on multi-course facilities. For example, The Blue Course is listed as the Willie Park course, instead of the White.

Is it possible some confusion exists between Pines and Bay?

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 09:14:22 PM »
Dave,

That's very interesting, especially given the friendship between Hugh Wilson and George Thomas over the years.  It almost purposefully seems to indicate that both Hugh Wilson and AW Tillinghast made revisions to Seaview working together.

I'm aware of the Gordon's being attributed with doing some work there in the late 50s when they were also adding 9 holes to William Flynn's original 9 on the Pines Course.   Perhaps they were the ones who flattened the original supposedly wildly undulating greens and their surrounds?   

The Al Janis attribution is in error.   He designed 3 new holes on the Pines course in the 70s/80s when the Learning Center was built which co-opted 3 of the original Gordon holes.  

I'm still very curious to learn who "Robinson" might have been.   I've never heard of him before, and given that Geist was alive during those years, I'm thinking he could have afforded someone with a bit more cache'!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 09:16:39 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2009, 09:31:57 PM »
Mike:

I have no real idea what the credit and caption in Thomas's book means as to what Tillinghast did although I have the book and I'm looking at the photograph in question of the Seaview hole mentioned on here.

I should tell you, however, that in a form of forward entitled "An Appreciation" (to his book), Thomas does make brief mention of the photographs contributed to his book and he does say that Tillinghast who he describes as a former club mate lent him 'prompt assistance' with original drawings and photographs; and then he mentions Ross with whom he worked and was indebted to for instruction (but apparently only as a club committee member) when Ross redid Philadelphia Cricket Club's St. Martin's course and then with whom he again worked (again as a club committee member) when Ross did the original Sunnybrook course. Then Thomas mentioned he was involved (again as as a club committee member) in working on the construction to Tillinghast's plans of the Philly Cricket Club Flourtown course.

I should also say that even into the 1920s Hugh Wilson did make another brief mention of Seaview and Geist for whom he was trying to secure a good stash of bent grass.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 09:33:49 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2009, 09:45:11 PM »

I should also say that even into the 1920s Hugh Wilson did make another brief mention of Seaview and Geist for whom he was trying to secure a good stash of bent grass.

Tom,

Interesting.

I do recall trying to secure a good stash of Hawaiian grass during the late 70s, and I believe there was a Sea View involved, but that's all I can remember.  ;)

Seriously, that is a good hint to some continued involvement at the course by Wilson and I would love to learn that he worked with Tillinghast...I'd imagine they'd make for an interesting pair!

Also, I'm still working to get you that brief synopsis on CC I promised for your meetings later this week.   Getting it down to a page given my verbosity is quite the challenge!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 09:56:10 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 09:47:33 PM »
Mike:

If you haven't read it yet I should probably give you a copy of an article I wrote some years ago for the Philadelphia Golfer magazine and then reworked it for the US Amateur magazine for the Merion US Amateur in 2005 that was basically titled "The Original Philadelphia School of Architecture."

In those articles the point is made that these Philadelphia ("School") guys were all good friends and generally playing partners at one time or another and they tended to work with each other pretty freely on various courses either with original designs or reworks. And then it should be stressed again that most of them either early on or always were architects who did not take pay for what they did.

John Ott made the point (that I put in the article attributing it to him) that to understand them you have to understand how close they all were.

I think that's a theme that is being proven as time goes on and when some try to figure out who exactly did what specifically here and there on holes or even courses it's just going to turn out to be a fruitless search and endeavor.

This is what Tom MacWood wanted to know about Merion East when he posted a thread asking who did what specifically. We told him noone really knows because it was just never recorded. We all should have left it at that and with his brother Alan's report after interviewing all the men he worked with at Merion East that 'in the main Hugh Wilson was the architect of the East and West courses.'

With these others it was probably sort of the same kind of thing! I hope you and others can live with that and not try to read things into the details where they don't exist because they were never recorded.

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 09:52:55 PM »
Tom,

I have no problem accepting the collaboration(s) that these fellows did, whatsoever.

If I did, I can't imagine that I wouldn't have lost my mind trying to track all the players who had input at Cobb's Creek alone!  ;)

What I find fascinating about the idea of Wilson and Tillinghast working together, however, besides their obviously differing personalities is that Wilson was such a prototypical "Amateur architect", while Tillinghast decided very early on..by 1915 or so, to give up his amateur status and pursue golf course architecture as a profession.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 10:16:30 PM »
The Tillinghast Association lists Seaviwe Golf Club, Bay Course under the heading "Original designs, reconstruction, expansions and additions"... Pine Valley is also listed because he likes to take credit for original designs on 2 of the holes, so I dont know how much credibility you want to give them.

Kyle Harris

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 10:20:08 PM »
The Tillinghast Association lists Seaviwe Golf Club, Bay Course under the heading "Original designs, reconstruction, expansions and additions"... Pine Valley is also listed because he likes to take credit for original designs on 2 of the holes, so I dont know how much credibility you want to give them.


Jaeger,

It's highly likely that Tillinghast deserves a little nod for Pine Valley - as Mike and Tom are stating, Crump and gang were pretty open to collaboration and input. I don't think Tillinghast, or the Association, are overstepping any courtesies in the least.

TEPaul

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 11:20:26 PM »
"What I find fascinating about the idea of Wilson and Tillinghast working together, however, besides their obviously differing personalities is that Wilson was such a prototypical "Amateur architect", while Tillinghast decided very early on..by 1915 or so, to give up his amateur status and pursue golf course architecture as a profession."

Mike Cirba:

That single statement just may deserve a very large book. I suspect that one is incredibly complex but you have to understand that at one point those so-called "amateur architects" felt that Tillinghast was "one of them". WHEN and HOW he somehow diverged from that (if in fact he ever did) AGAIN I suspect is a major league story deserving of a large book----which, I'm afraid, has not yet been written or perhaps even considered! 

(There is one totally massive question involved in this essential context---and that is WHY Tillinghast was never a member of Pine Valley. For Christ's Sake, everyone else who was important to those people in golf and architecture was! Tillinghast was a friend of Crump's and as much of a natural to belong to Pine Valley as Macdonald was a natural to become the President of the USGA at one time! In both cases, what the fuck happened??? ;) ). AGAIN, I suspect it's a large, large and important subject, probably deserving of its own dedicated book!

BUT, I do not consider that kind of thing as in any way unusual. For years now, I have not believed the real story, or even the most interesting story, of Charles Blair Macdonald, has ever been told either!  ;)

Perchance if it ever is, I think most of us who are so interested in these subjects, might be treated to what might have been, probably was, not just the real significant crossroads of American architecture but American golf!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 11:42:30 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 04:12:03 AM »
Maybe I can shed some light on this, especially as there are several points that have been raised and are intertwined causing confusion. The best way to approach this is by separating and approaching them one at a time.

The first question is WHY does the Tillinghast Association list the course in the "Examinations" section of his work?

Tilly separated his work into THREE main areas; "Original Designs," "Reconstructed and Extended Courses" and "Examinations and Reports." We know this because he produced an advertising brochure that listed MOST but not all of his work in these three areas in 1925. That year is a key part of understanding this riddle. The Tillinghast Association has decided to break it out just a bit further and so lists FOUR separate areas by differentiating between "Reconstructions" and "Additions." This helps the student of Tilly to get a better sense of the actual work done at specific courses.

Jaeger noted that, "The Tillinghast Association lists Seaviwe Golf Club, Bay Course under the heading "Original designs, reconstruction, expansions and additions"... Pine Valley is also listed because he likes to take credit for original designs on 2 of the holes, so I dont know how much credibility you want to give them."

Yse, Pine Valley is listed, but NOT for the reason that Jaeger has stated. Note that Pine Valley is listed under the "Examinations and Reports" section. The reason for this is because Tilly himself listed them that way in the 1925 brochure. We believe that after Crump's death that, like a number of others, he was asked to examine the unfinished course and submit his ideas as to how to go about finishing it. As in the others listed that way in his brochure, he didn't get the job. He did, however, make very specific recommendations about several holes during their design phase to his friend, George Crump. He even included drawings of these during the time they were being constructed and did claim that the finished product were his ideas.

By the way, there was also a distinct difference between "examining" a course and providing a "Report" about one in Tilly's mind. Tilly looked at many hundreds of golf courses and gave bids to the prospective and actual owners to provide architectural and design services to them. A good portion of these were simply in letter form stating that for X dollars he would provide the following services without any specifics. These are separate and distinct from the idea of an "examination" and/or "report" about a golf course.

Many of his "Examinations" were done with the principals alongside him. They would hear what he had to say as they went hole-by-hole and no official written "Report" would be given them. In other cases, AFTER Tilly made his examinations, he would put his suggestions down on paper and send them to the club &/or Green Committee which he was dealing with. Some of these included drawings and sketches for either a new routing or individual hole changes.

Why is the 1925 date of this brochure important? Because Tilly DIDN'T list the course among those that he had either designed, worked on, examined or reported on. Yet the reference in Thomas' book implies shows that whatever Tilly did had to occur BEFORE it was published in 1927.

In the fall of 1925, Jess Sweetser recommended to Clarence geist that a charity golf tournament might be organized and held in just a few short months prior to the Christmas holidays. It was held on December 7, 8 & 9, and was to benefit the Christmas Seals charity. Everyone was stunned when 130 players "reported to the first tee" for play. In fact, it was estimated that 250 would have teed it up if it hadn't been for "the greatest snowstorm since 1886" which covered "the Eastern seaboard of the country." Findlay Douglas, Bobby Jones, George Von Elm, Harry Cooper, J.Wood Platt and other notables supported the event.

The man who organized and ran this tournament at Geist's request in just over six weeks? A.W. Tillinghast.

The tournament was so successful that immediate plans began being made with a committee formed in January 1926 to create and oversee the making of a tournament that would become an "annual fixture and national event." It was to be officially called the "Jess Sweetser Christmas Seal" tournament. Geist stated at a dinner that he believed the event would be able to raise over a million dollars for the charity. Unfortunately the Great Depression began in November 1929 with the stock market crash and the tournament was no longer held.

As part of the planning though, an examination of the course and recommendations for needed changes would have probably occurred, and with Tilly's involvement as the first one's organizer and his being part of the tournament committee, naturally he would be involved with this aspect.

Cornish and Whitten list the Seaview Bay Course as being "remodeled" by Tilly without giving a date for the work. Like many others I have been unable to ascertain that Tilly did anything more than look at the course for Geist, though I wouldn't be surprised if he made recommendations and that work was done, especially if it happened during this time period.

As for the Thomas' reference to a possible "Wilson-Tillinghast" collaboration, this would be highly unlikely. As shown above, any and all examinations and work that may have been done by Tilly would not have taken place BEFORE the winter of 1926. Hugh Wilson had died the year before and so could not have been involved.

What I believe it refers to, and this is speculation only, is what Wilson and Tilly wrote Thomas about as they both enjoyed ongoing correspondence with him. In these letters much information as to current events and work were included, with some of it making its way into his writings. Thomas knew the Seaview Course and all of the Jersey courses well. That Wilson and Tilly might make reference to aspects of their designs would be expected as thomas refers to information such as this being inletters that he received.

And so, I believe that whatever minor changes to Seaview that might have taken place in 1926 had already been mentioned to him as part of these ongoing correspondence by both Wilson and Tilly. That is why in refering to the Seaview changes that Thomas honored his hewly-passed friend by linking his name with Tilly's as the ones responsible for them.

Again, that is only speculation on my part.

And lest I forget, Mike, the reason it isn't mentioned in mt Tilly bio is due to a clerical error on my part. It somehow got lost from original mauscript to final version... That mistake, as well as a few others most have never even noticed, will be corrected in Volume II.

Hope that helps...


« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 04:11:20 PM by Philip Young »

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 07:40:42 AM »
Thomas knew the Seaview Course and all of the Jersey courses well. That Wilson and Tilly might make reference to aspects of their designs would be expected as thomas refers to information such as this being inletters that he received.


Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additional information.   I did read about Tillinghast's putting together that Charity Tournament for Geist, and it does seem the two shared a friendship for many years.

I don't have the George Thomas book and was wondering if you could elaborate on the paragraph above.   Could you tell me more about what Thomas said he received in terms of correspondence on specific courses from both Tillinghast and Wilson?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 07:44:06 AM by MikeCirba »

Peter Pallotta

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 01:53:14 PM »
Mike -
I wonder if this is the Robinson you seek, from a 1915 article in Golf Illustrated:

A rather elaborate prospectus and beautifully colored chart comes from Ocean City, showing the new 18-holes golf course, which is being built at that place. The new course is being conducted on an island surrounded by salt water and situated in the central section of the city on the base side, about a quarter of a mile from the ocean. William Robinson, who for a number of years was professional at Atlantic City, and later on at Seaview, is in charge of the construction work."

Peter

Mike_Cirba

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2009, 02:05:43 PM »
Peter,

That would almost certainly be the guy.   Thanks for giving me a place to dig further.

Thanks!!

Chris_Blakely

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 02:10:36 PM »
Dave, et al.,

One thing I've noticed about "The Architects of Golf" is their difficulty at times in distinguishing between courses on multi-course facilities. For example, The Blue Course is listed as the Willie Park course, instead of the White.

Is it possible some confusion exists between Pines and Bay?

George Thomas' book is copyrighted in 1927 and the Pines course (Flynn's 9) opened several years after that, I believe 1929; thus, the picture of the green in his book was done prior to the Pines course.

Chris

Peter Pallotta

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2009, 02:16:26 PM »
You're welcome, Mike - I tried to dig a little deeper before I posted that, but could find no other mention of Robinson.  Also, since "later at Seaview" must refer to a time before the date of the 1915 article, it would suggest that either Robinson had done some type of work at Seaview by 1915, or that (can we assume?) he returned to Seaview at some point after the Ocean City assignment, armed with the experience gained constructing that course.

Peter

Chris_Blakely

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2009, 02:21:47 PM »
Mike / Peter,

When I found the photo of Seaview in Thomas' book and posted on Mike's other thread, I too was wondering who 'Robinson' was.  I knew it wasn't Bill Robinson formerly with Cornish.

Chris

BCrosby

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Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2009, 03:08:30 PM »
TEP wrote:

"That single statement just may deserve a very large book. I suspect that one is incredibly complex but you have to understand that at one point those so-called "amateur architects" felt that Tillinghast was "one of them". WHEN and HOW he somehow diverged from that (if in fact he ever did) AGAIN I suspect is a major league story deserving of a large book----which, I'm afraid, has not yet been written or perhaps even considered!"

Exactly so. But class issues weren't just about who joined what club. Class issues were also intertwined with design issues. MacK, Simpson, Behr, Colt and others turning their noses up at the "card and pencil" mentality were also about class issues. Their complaint being that too many players did not (or were unable to) appreciate the more subtle, refined rewards that playing golf could offer.

Bob 

Phil_the_Author

Re: What did Tillinghast do at Seaview?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 04:15:54 PM »
Tom,

You wrote, "That single statement just may deserve a very large book. I suspect that one is incredibly complex but you have to understand that at one point those so-called "amateur architects" felt that Tillinghast was "one of them". WHEN and HOW he somehow diverged from that (if in fact he ever did) AGAIN I suspect is a major league story deserving of a large book----which, I'm afraid, has not yet been written or perhaps even considered!"

All I can say is wait until you see Volume II! I believe you will enjoy the chapter currently tentatively titled "From Amateur to Professional" as it details that very history. And to quote a man passionate about golf course architecture -  ;)

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