Mtn Time Zone -- Best Private & Best Public ...

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The 8th at Dye's Promontory is only meant to be played from the extreme tips when conditions permit. Generally, the prevailing wind does allow for a shorter situation and you need to keep in mind the effect of elevation -- the card says 299 but truly it's a bit shorter and Dye was smart enough to include a ramp that feeds the ball into the green if you hit a bit short. Figure the total length to be in the 260-275 range.

Try to realize if temps are in the 40's and the wind turns around -- the tee markers would need to be set up accordingly. I agree in the circumstances you mentioned -- it would be silly. But the hole is playable when temps are seasonal during the main playing season -- which is short.

I like the front because it is exposed more to the elements. On the back side the canyons mean a rough similarity from one hole to the next. Each of the holes is slotted into the area provided and you get a nice feeling of being protected from the elements but it does get a bit redundant.

The front provides more stunning vistas of the surrounding mountains and I liked the combination you get with the 2nd - a terrific and frightening tee shot and then followed with the long and demanding 3rd -- 720 yards but plunging downhill and inviting the bold play for those who dare.
 
The meadow-like land on the inner half has a better combination of holes -- I think one of the more underrated holes is the uphill 9th -- especially from the tip tee which is placed in the far corner and is usually not seen by many people.

The main issue I have with Dye's course when held against Glenwild is the sheer details you get from the Fazio layout. There's more diverse holes -- more real change of pace situations -- and you need to work the ball a bit better at Glenwild.

I'm looking forward to playing the Nicklaus layout there. Curious if Bill can provie any comments on the new O'Meara layout that opened at Tuhaye.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

The distance is only half the issue with #8.  Its a green thats not very accepting of a run up shot and with trouble both short, left and long is near impossible from 299.  At that distance it does seem it'd make for a very fun risk/reward short par 4...altough there isn't much space to layup. 

I agree with Andy that the back 9 was a lot funner to play even if it is less exposed to the elements.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Let's do the hole a bit more justice -- shall we ?

The only people -- emphasized -- AGAIN -- who should remotely contemplate playing from that position are people who can hit it far enough.

The green does accept shots but it's quite exacting. Those bemoaning the hole who can't meet its stringent requirements do have an option -- play from tees that align to your game.

Let's also realize that a 299-yd hole at the elevation we are talking about in Park City is at least 10% less than what the card presents. Is the hole tough? No doubt. But such holes are like double diamond ski hills -- those used to bunny slopes should accept a challenge that's tied to what their game presents.

I hear loud and clear what Andy said -- you don't play tip distances in 40 degree temps.

Kalen, we agree to disagree about the front and back -- the front has the more varied holes, terrain and shot requirements. The canyon-like back is fairly redundant with a few holes of note sprinkled into the mix.

[Andy Troeger]

We admittedly didn't play the back tees--just wandered back there for the sake of trying the shot. I can't imagine that great of a percentage of people play the 7700 yard tees (or at least SHOULD), given that the next set is still 7100 yards. At elevation, that's a pretty reasonable number.

I don't think the holes on the back are similar at all except from a visual standpoint--they do run through the canyon. The greens and bunkering and playable elements have some variety to them, as do the hole lengths. I give the front more credit than I think Kalen does though, especially the 2nd and 3rd holes. #8 is fine from the regular tees, but I wouldn't call it anything that special from there.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

When you factor in a 8-10% reduction because of the altitude the tip distance at 7,700 yards is a good bit less than that number. It would be far different if that were the number when playing at or near sea level -- such as The Ocean Course at Kiawah when played from the rear markers.

Like I said before -- the prevailing wind is meant to assist the player on that hole -- and there is enough of a space for a ball to run up towards the green. I candidly admit the space isn't as wide as Texas but it's there.

We see the 8th differently -- so be it. Just realize the long par-3 is something the Dye has tried to bring back to life because so many courses have abandoned the shot value if such hole exceeds 225 yards. In general term, you get a quartet of par-3's which range from the proverbial 150 to 225 yards. I like the inclusion of a long par-3 -- the tip distance is only for people who can handle that and likely on the 8th you will see long players hit anywhere from a very long iron to hybrid to fairway metal. Generally, these types of clubs are not used by these caliber of players and forcing them back into usage is a fair game inclusion by the architect.

What many people don't say is that long par-3's -- especially those that are beyond 225 yards are often downplayed or bemoaned by those who don't have that shot in their bags. I'm not referring either to you or Kalen -- but many times people will wax poetic about the short par-3 --- let's say under 125 yards but then become hyper when the architect decides to go the other way.

I like the 8th at Promontory -- I'll also be the first to admit it's not as good a hole as the 16th at Norman's Red Sky Ranch. Just a better visual and more interesting green site in that case.

In regards to the front and back at Dye's Promontory -- the front is open to the elements and the ground movement -- from the time you start at the 1st and work your way through to the 9th is much more varied ... the canyon-like holes on the inner half allow for plenty of tee shots to follow the slot line that's been provided. Once is OK -- but it becomes redundant to the point of overkill for me.

I'm looking forward to playing the Nicklaus layout there -- quick question -- if you have ten rounds how would you divide them up between the two for you?

Thanks ...

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

The 8th at Pete Dye Prom is still a neat golf hole, just not one of my favs.  I should qualify this with the fact that my two favorite par 3 golf holes are both over 210 yards long, so I don't think I have much anti-distance bias going.

That being said, whether one has the shot in the bag for the 299 yard tee or not, of which I cleary don't, it doesn't change the fact that the target is way too small to call it a true par 3.  In the end though, it doesn't really matter because par is arbitrary.

As for me, I will glady walk off that hole pleased with a 4 or less, even from the 220 tees that I played it from.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

I can understand that -- my only point was when people ascribe a tag of
"playability" they need to do so from the vantage point of tees that align themselves to the tees such people really do play from -- not those beyond their means.

The extra long par-3 is a great means for the architect to force players to use the longer clubs in their bag. It's something the old-time architects did well at doing -- it only seems to be a modern thing where you get the formulaic quartet of par-3's that range from 150 to a max of 210 yards.

The idea in having small targets is also a good one and here's why -- if you have a very large target it will only benefit the stronger player because they already have the edge from the standpoint of strength. Forcing them to hit a very accurate and long shot puts them on notice to execute at a very high level.

For the person who doesn't hit too far -- the smaller size target should not be an issue because in nearly all the cases they won't get to the green in regulation anyway. This same philosophy holds true for longer par-4's and it's been something Dye has done with a few other designs of his I have played.

I agree, walking away from the hole with a four is not a bad number. The issue is making the longer hitter EARN the three. The smaller size green does that.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
7-3 Dye over Nicklaus at Promontory for me. I think you'd like Promontory Nicklaus better than I do based on what I know of your tendencies, but I'd rather you play it first before I explain why.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Fair enough.

I would not assume I would like the Nicklaus over the Dye layouts. You might be surprised on that front.

Just for curiosity -- can you name for me the top 3-4 Nicklaus courses you have ever played in the USA -- ditto the 3-4 most overrated Nicklaus courses you've played as well too.

Thanks.

I'll explain why shortly ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Re-read what I wrote--I said you'd like Promontory Nicklaus better than I liked Promontory Nicklaus. I'd put it 50/50 as to which of the two courses there that you'd prefer.

Favorite Nicklaus designs are Castle Pines GC and Muirfield Village, by a fair margin.

I wasn't a big fan of Superstition Mountain Prospector, and only played OSU Scarlet after the re-do and wasn't real impressed with it.

[Matt_Ward]

Given the range of Nicklaus courses you mentioned -- what side does his work at Promontory fall towards in your mind -- is it closer to the Muirfield Village's or the Superstition Mtn Prospector ?

Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Given the range of Nicklaus courses you mentioned -- what side does his work at Promontory fall towards in your mind -- is it closer to the Muirfield Village's or the Superstition Mtn Prospector ?

Thanks ...

Pretty close to the middle, maybe a little closer to SMP.