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TEPaul

Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« on: June 04, 2002, 08:59:16 AM »
We've talked an awful lot about firm and fast conditions "through the green" when it comes to great playabiliites, enhanced and highlighted "options" and "strategies" that are necessary ingredients of the "ideal maintenance meld" on some of these classically designed golf courses.

But the ideal maintenance meld is all about bringing all the necessary ingredients together into one big necessary whole!

And the other really essential ingredient to fast and firm conditions "through the green" are greens that only "dent" a little when aerial shots land on them and do not "pitch mark" and create a situation where good players can easily "spin" and "control" their aerial approaches.

Why? Because with those two necessary ingredients--fast "through the green" conditions combined with greens that only "dent" a little, a really interesting "strategic balance" is created that forces good players into a bit of a quandry as to what decisions to make even with a vast array of potentially well executed shots!

When that "strategic balance" is created good players can no longer soley rely on their aerial games without thought and some concern! When that happens options that they don't rely on start to occur to them.

If this combination starts to appear on certain golf courses more and more some very interesting and benefical things will happen. Many more people will become aware of how good and interesting some of these courses really are. Little things, nuances, are going to appear that golfers have never even noticed and those little things are going to get highlighted!

Who knows, if this gets good enough and prevalent enough people might even start talking about the old tortoise and hare situation again! And how cool would that be?

And all because of some little added previously unthought of ingredient like greens that just "dent" a little and don't "pitch mark"!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2002, 09:41:13 AM »
Tom:  This is a great concept. All players would be forced to think through options not just the really good players.  The average players would have to be just as concerned about pin placements, pitch and run shots vs. aerial shots to the green.  Adds a lot more fun to the game. Forces one to think through what they are doing and definitely pay attention to all the nuances the course is showing.  
Winged Foot last week was a great example of this as was Charles River over the weekend.

Cheers
Dave Miller
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2002, 10:25:38 AM »
TEPaul,

The caveat that I would add, would be that the approaches have to be close to identical to the greens in firmness.

If forward pins are used, balls hit short must react in approximately the same way they do when they strike the green.

I like it when you can't see or find a ball mark.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will Wang

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2002, 10:57:57 AM »
pat,

i agree with you 100% there.  i played a course this weekend with rock hard greens that wouldn't hold at all.  of course this was made worse by the fact that the fairways leading up to the greens were not running fast and you couldn't play a low bump and run approach.

with hard/firm/dentless greens, is it fair to then have thick rough around the greens or should a larger areas of chipping/approach zones be placed where balls are mostly like to run through or off the green?

will
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2002, 11:31:46 AM »
Pat & Will:

The approaches can be a whole different equation and something so far I've only included when mentioning "through the green" which is the entire area from tee right to the green front in my way of looking at this!

However, the firmness of approaches these days and even their cut are getting to be sort of separate areas in some of these courses that I see as getting into some real "ideal maintenance melds" and some extra sophistication.

Merion is a great example. Some of the approaches on their holes have a different cut altogether than the fairway itself and obviously than the green although these approach areas at Merion are cut much shorter than the fairways and are actually extremely tight "chipping areas"! They have a look on some holes like the green itself from approach shot distance and can be extremely deceiving in look! Some like #6 look like greenspace itself from 100yds and on out and can fool a golfer in thinking they are greenspace! But they are all definitely firm and the ball will roll on very well through them and onto the green.

Of course if your ball is on them there are all kinds of interesting shot options--certainly including putting from quite far out!

I wouldn't necessarily say they have to have balls react to them exactly like the green surfaces but to work well in this overall scheme they should be somewhat consistent in firmness throughout the course.

The worst of all worlds though would be a course that has very firm greens (only a slight "dent") but has soft approaches! Basically that can be an impossible situation for any level of golfer as it can pretty much cancel out both the aerial and ground game option.

This whole "ideal maintenance meld" situation is interesting because basically it's a "course specific" issue that's designed to apply the maintenance practices "ideal" for that particular course! In this way "ideal maintenance meld" can differ immensely from the much less defined "good condition".

Obviously on a very modern course designed primarily for the aerial game option and very little approach ground game option the firmness of the greens might have to be much different too. In those cases greens that just "dent" a little would probably not work well at all. On those types of designs you probably would need to maintain the greens to really "pitch mark" (to spin the ball for aerial control!!).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2002, 11:52:09 AM »
The Doyens have done it again!
Perfect descriptions of ideal maintainence meld, I would only add that one reason this works so well on the older shorter courses is that many of them relied primarily on sheet or surface drainage to get rid of rain water. They seem to drain quickly and many return to fast and firm in 24 hours.

Patricks observation about the approaches is key, there was a thread on this about a month ago precipitated by the pros grumbling about Bay Hill having rock hard greens and soft approaches.

Question for the keepers of the green out there. Many of the really great courses hand mow green approaches down to 3/8
or less, doesn't this cut require more water to keep the turf healthy? Wouldn't this practice be detrimental to firm approaches or at least make it more complicated? The approaches at WF were mowed as described yet they were uniformly firm how is this accomplished?

We are struggling a little bit with this at my club.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2002, 11:57:00 AM »
I actually got to play a course this weekend that played exactly like this through the green.  Wedges and nine irons held without a problem, but above that you really had to play the proper shot into the green.  I thought it played great, but my playing partners kept grumbling about their long irons not holding on the green.  My immediate response was, "Since when have your long irons ever held on the green?"  But I agree, most of the golf in my area seems to play like this in the summer months and for some reason my game really starts to pick it up a notch.  Hot and humid in Indiana with fast and firm conditions.  Just the way I like it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2002, 01:14:57 PM »
I should also mention a couple of years ago I saw another very interesting "meld" situation at a little course in Southern Ireland that I played alone every morning for about a week.

I would call this little course (Mallow G.C.) a sort of "country course" but it was really fun to play.

Unlike that "ideal meld" described above where the "through the green" firmness combined with firm greens that only "dent" a little thereby creating that perfect "strategic quandry" in the minds of good players, Mallow had an interesting combination that was actually very defined to the player but the shot choices were as wide as I've ever seen.

The course "through the green" was as rock hard as I've almost ever seen but the greens were quite sloped and contoured but quite slow and they very much "pitch marked"! In other words you could easily depend on flying almost any club into the green and having it stop!

But if you chose the ground game option (obviously the course must not have had water system "through the green") the ball would bounce really high and take off maybe up to  fifty or more yards to the green. And there was some serious slope on this golf course everywhere to make it even more interesting!

So the club choice spectrum was really dramatic. If you wanted to play the ground game from like 190 you could take about an 8-9 iron and hit it 140 and bounce and roll it all the way or you could take about a 4 iron and fly it all the way and it would end up in the same place as the 8 or 9 iron with the ground shot!

There was no "strategic quandry" situation here like the almost equally dicey "balance" between the ground game and the greens that just "dent" with the aerial game. This was a very clear cut choice!

The other interesting thing about Mallow and its unusual meld is if you happened to choose that 4 iron for the aerial shot and you didn't hit it all the way to the green it would hit the end of the approach (really hard) and take off for about another fifty yards way over the green!

Just another interesting "meld" and another way to go. Luckily though the whole course was consistent this way.

It was really fun--I'll never forget Mallow--firmest course I've ever seen "through the green'!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kevin Smith

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2002, 10:16:12 AM »
Over the years I have observed several instances where irrigation designers, 30 to 40 years ago, created wet approaches through multiple sprinkler layouts fronting the greens and use of 360 degree greenside sprinklers.  Old-time designers were far more concerned about green grass than playability and, in my opinion, assumed golfers wanted softer, more forgiving conditions on and around the greens (this was also, to some degree, dictated by the technology available).  From a greenkeeper's perspective this might be jokingly referred to as "The Golden Age of Poa Annua".

Clearly, there is a profound trend toward the "sympathetic" restoration of classic course playing conditions.  If I'm not mistaken, many of the courses that have been referred to have undergone irrigation system updates or re-designs that allow the superintendent to apply precise amounts of water to specific locations.  Furthermore, the irrigation water is applied in multiple, short cycles rather than one or two longer cycles thereby greatly enhancing infiltration and virtually eliminating runoff.

The ability to apply water in a highly customized fashion is a marvelous tool for a supt. to utilize in his/her efforts to maintain championship turf.  Other technologies have surfaced in the past ten years that have further enhanced the supt's. ability to maintain healthy turfgrass roots through a stressful season.  Healthy roots = the ability to more comfortably push the envelope toward consistently firm, fast conditions.  Naturally, these efforts can prove to be very budget intensive and may not be for everyone.  

My first supt's. job was at a medium budget private club in a windswept, semi-arid part of the country.  In my youthful exuberance I recall going toe to toe with some of the high handicap members who were bouncing wedges over the greens all in the interest of good agronomics and firm and fast conditions.

From there I ended up at a top 100 course in the desert where I was "encouraged" to adopt the developer's mentality of "green is good".  I also recall a tradition-minded club who vowed they would never succumb to the "artificial" look and playability of winter overseeding.  Years later, after an ill-fated attempt to maintain bentgrass year-round, they have decided to plant hybrid bermudagrass and overseed.

While there has been tremendous progress in educating golfers of the environmental, agronomic, and playability benefits of reduced water use and tinges of brown; the fact remains, now more than ever, that golf is primarily a business.
Unfortunately, IMHO, the average hacker will most likely play the greenest course where he can, perhaps once or twice per round, fly the ball to the hole and walk away with a par.  

But certainly that doesn't mean that we should stop trying to convert the masses.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2002, 10:37:23 AM »
Keven, what an enjoyable and informative post.  We just returned from the sand hills courses, where the greens resist the tendancy to "dent".  ;)  I'll be interested if any of the players comment here about how they liked that.  Other than one hole (#2) where the approach was a bit softer than the rest of the course for unknown reasons, Wild Horse really offers the thrill of the firm approaches and surrounds combining many internal contours within the greens, and noses and humps and hollows on approachs and in surrounds.  The fescue surrounds are firm and fast and offer putting and chipping from a comparatively wide distance from green edges contrasted to most courses.  What dents that are made on greens on the sand hill courses are easily repaired by lightly forking the dry sandy base rather than spading up a juicy gob of roots and pudding on many over watered greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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M.W. Burrows

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2002, 03:44:23 PM »
Please see my rant on Ed Baker's thread on catch areas.  

I am having a difficult time with member's complaining about greens being too firm this spring and basically not understanding the course they play every day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2002, 06:28:02 PM »
How much does the dent factor rely on near perfect fairway grooming/heights of cut? My greens are kept in "dent" mode, but my fairways, due to cost, aren't the ultimate in spin-ability. I wonder where the line should be drawn, but I like hard greens that you have to run it up on from afar, so.....I'll take the strategy over the grumbling any day.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2002, 09:42:16 PM »
Matt:

Left a post for you on the other thread but if they're complaining the greens are too firm just explain to them they should try the ground game run-up option! If they don't have that option because the approach isn't running and releasing and they can't successfully use it, they've got a real problem and so do you!

If you have some greens with no run-up option and surfaces   so firm they can't successfully use that only option--the aerial option, they've got a problem and so do you.

The key is to explain to them that what they're trying isn't the only way--but of course the other way you tell them about really does have to work!

If you do give them all kinds of options that really do work and they still tell you they aren't satisfied because they don't like the other options that work tell them to f...off and that's not your problem!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2002, 04:33:51 PM »
JHancock:

That's a good question of yours and is probably something relatively important for the very good player--the type who can put some real spin on the ball (or not) at will. That's probably part of the "maintenance meld" too but a pretty sophisticated part!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie s

Re: Putting greens that only "dent"!!
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2002, 07:07:00 PM »
8) :D

TEPaul

Great idea, very seldom accepted. If only more players would
appreciate " all dente " surfaces!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »