Donald Ross's Seaview course

[TEPaul]

Went down yesterday to meet with Rob Bartley (director of golf) at Seaview.

Ross's (1914) Bay course is just terrific--a total throwback in time! There's tons of architecture "of an era" out there that's wonderful for any of us to see! This course is one of the farthest things from a modern golf course and modern architecture I've ever seen--I'll go into all that some other time.

Rob Bartley is great too! He either has real understanding of classic architecture or else a real instinct for it--probably both! I told him about Golfclubatlas and I think he'll be a natural on here.

I would have posted about Seaview anyway but the primary reason was because of Pat Mucci's thread on mounds in front of greens! There was one of the coolest mounds just in front of one of the greens I ever saw--so good in fact I'm going back down there soon and taking a photo of it from every angle. My sense is it has real "playability" for many levels of golfer, particularly for a front pin!

Another aspect of Ross's course is all the old original "sand mounds" that are still there (although covered with fescue). Basically you can see from some of the original photos of Seaview they were sort of "upside down" bunkers! Were they done that way because of the low lying site and the high water table? Probably!!

Some of the greens too are really great "of an era"--some of the best quirk around.

I did not even know that Clarence Geist built the entire Seaview complex--hotel and all!

The photo of the "Mae West" green surface should be posted on here! Snead is shown putting on it with about 500 people surrounding the green!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Seaview Bay is indeed a little gem, and you've described the old-fashioned features well.  The 13th is one of the coolest short par threes I've seen, the 2nd is loads of fun into a stiff breeze off the bay with it's exposed green, and one of the most interesting snake-pit bunkers I've ever seen is on one of the holes on the back (can't recall which).  

There are also some very cool cross-bunkers on par fives, almost functioning somewhat as Tillie's Hell's Half Acre concept.  

Did you have a chance to look at the Pines course at all?  Nine of those holes are Flynn originals, and there are some very good ones.  The holes that Gordon&Gordon built are in the Flynn style, and I'd like to see if you can pick out who did what.  Unfortunately, 2 or 3 of the holes were done over when the "golf academy" was built, by an architect who shall remain nameless, and stick out incongruously from the rest.

[TEPaul]

Mike;

I think I remember you mentioning lots about the Seaview courses some time back but stupid me--I guess I didn't really pay attention. Yes, Rob Bartley did go over the Pines course and the Flynn nine, the Gordons and those holes that were altered etc, and I had played that one a few years ago.

But I never saw the Ross one before--and yes Tillie redid some of the bunkering on that one!

They have some of the best Ross hole blueprints complete with construction explanations on them I've ever seen too--all hanging along the wall outside the pro shop. In another corridor some great old "on the ground" photos of holes and interesting people!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

A couple of years ago, I read the Ron Whitten had evidence that the actual designer of Seaview Bay is one Mr. Hugh Wilson, who evidently did the original basic routing and course construction.  I also understand that Harry Colt made a visit during construction.  

In fact, even the Ross tome "Golf Has Never Failed Me", lists Seaview Bay as a Ross re-design.  Whitten, I believe (and I'm sorry if I heard this wrong), claimed the Wilson was not particularly good with bunkering (using Cobbs Creek as an example, and giving most of the credit for Merion East's bunkering to Flynn and Valentine), and Ross was called in by Geist shortly after the course opened to bunker it appropriately.  

Are those Ross drawings dated?  My understanding is that Wilson's version of the course opened in 1914, and Ross did his work in 1918.  

I'd love to know the whole story, given the names involved.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I don't know about Wilson and Seaview yet although he was certainly mentioned yesterday as possibly doing something along the lines of what you said.

If Whitten has evidence of Wilson at Seaview I wish he would explain just what it is. I hope it's not something like he just heard that somewhere.

I'm getting a bit of a sinking feeling that actual evidence of what some of Wilson's contributions anywhere may have been is getting lost with time and tide. I hope that's not so and I think there may still be some places to look that have not been tried to date.

The important thing to concentrate on in the Philly region is that with the early architecture that the rule of thumb, as Mayor Ott has always said, is that all those guys knew each other very well. So if you can't find things in one place there may be other places to look.

I have a feeling that Ron Whitten never really did any in-depth research of his own, only relying on things that had already been known but possibly not interpreted that accurately.

But with my new interest in Flynn I sure will be keeping my eye out for anything to do with Hugh Wilson anywhere I can find it.

Was he one of that group that went to play at the shore during the winter months? Not certain of that but it would certainly make plenty of sense as again, all those good golfers from that era, Crump, Tillinghast etc knew each other and played together.

[archie struthers]

Living down at the shore I have had lots of time to hang out at all the local courses, which are very interesting in their genesis. I had never heard that Wilson was the architect of record for Seaview Bay, and was truly saddened with the changes to the Pines course, as Flynns' work was poorly altered.  

The Bay course is really way cool   . Small pot bunkers, great views of the inland waterway, and interesting golf, albeit easy, in a confined area. I would be surprised if the Bay takes up even a hundred acres. Some superlative greensites, my favorite is old #16, and a real flow, which is such an ephemeral characteristic.  The elevation change on site is minimal, maybe less than twenty feet, yet you have a real feeling of uphill and downhill on many holes. Just a fun, excellent piece of design work and some good work in maintaining its original character!

[George Bahto]

2 weeks ago I spent a week down at Seaview with my wife, daughter and son in law.  I had played the Pines course before, shunning the Bay course.

What an error.

I played the Bay for two days and was so impressed with it I went out there one evening and really scoped the details. Sure it's short but boy is it fun. The first day we played it into a 3-club wind.

The ambiance of that course should be experienced, given the opportunity. The mounding between the fairways really sets the ioff-fairway area up nicely.

I'd never play the other course again if I could play the Bay.

The hotel has always been excellent but since Bill Marriot and Co have taken it over it is even better. They now have built golf villa just a short distance from the hotel and there is an excellent Faldo practice facility right across from the villas.

Pretty good place for a couple days,, near home if you are from the Met NY - NJ area

[Mike_Cirba]

Seaview CC used to be quite the exalted private facility.  In fact, the PGA was held there in 1942, won by Sam Snead just before he went into the service, over 9 holes of the Wilson?/Ross course and 9 holes of the Flynn course.

Like many eastern families, we used to vacation "down the shore" as kids.  We would regularly stay on the island of Brigantine, and my two brothers and I would play at least 18 holes a day on the Stiles/Van Kleek Brigantine Country Club, which was a fun, windy course on a barrier island.

One evening, circa 1972, we were driving inland to try a seafood restaurant for dinner, when we happened to spy a golf course through the bushes along the road.  My dad, who was about my age at the time and going through the requisite mid-life crisis, was at the helm of his brand new 72 solid-ORANGE Chevy Malibu, and decided that we needed to check this out.  Oh yes, by the way, my mom and her mother were in the car as well.

So, he finds this little access road (which runs along the 1st and 2nd holes of the Bay course), and starts along it.  Somewhere along the way, what I now know as either a maintenance path, or rudimentary, sandy cart path was on our left and my dad couldn't resist detouring along it.

So, here's this bright orange car, filled with 3 kids, an old lady, and my mom, and a slightly if insanely motivated father cruising across the Seaview Country Club course where we proceeded until we found a foursome playing along with their caddie corps.

The conversation was brief;

Dad: "Hi there.  Is this a public course?"

Large Caddie: "No sir."

Dad: "How do we get out of here?"

Large Caddie: "I don't know how you got ON here.  This is the 7th fairway."

With that, with the driving ability of a Mario Andretti in his prime, my somehow non-plussed father somehow maneuvered us to dinner.

20 years later, when I actually played the course, memories remained vivid.  

[Craig Rokke]

You guys have definitely spurred me on to try to get back to Seaview. I played the Pines about 3 years ago, but have not
played the Bay yet. My buddy who often reminds me that he has Seaview coupons he wants to use will be happy.

The utilities magnate, C. Geist, who TEP spoke of, also
used his Phila connections in choosing William Flynn for his Boca Raton golf course.

It is a shame that so much of Hugh Wilson's work record appears sketchy at best.

[Craig Rokke]

Mike, I trust your Dad observed the 90 degree rule as best he could. I see where you get some of your insatiable appetite for golf!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig;

The somewhat ironic thing is that my dad had only started playing the game after his sons did, which was about a year before our Seaview (mis)adventure.

Obviously, he caught the bug quickly, and there's been no letup since in his enthusiasm.  Even after his quad-bypass in December, he's kept it going by simply relishing listening to tales of his middle-son's recent golf travels.    

Thankfully, he's been given the all clear to return to the links, and I hope to play with him sometime next weekend.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Mike Cirba,

It's a shame the owners of the hotel, when it changed hands years ago, chose to ruin some holes on the Pines course.
The two courses had contrasting personalities and offered the golfer two wonderful experiences.

Some claimed the Pines course was almost as good as Pine Valley.  Maybe an overstatement, but certainly a lofty assessment.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I believe they put in some kind of practice facility that was responsible for the ruination of those 2-3 holes on the Pine Course. That kind of thing generally happens when practice facilities and such are added to limited space courses.

The Pines is a nice course but those few people who claim it's almost the equal of Pine Valley did make both a lofty assessment and a real overstatement!

Maybe it was even Clarence Geist himself who said that! Rob Bartley gave me some interesting material to read on Geist--a very interesting man and definitely a real piece of work!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Many years ago, when it initially changed hands, they expanded some hotel facilities and redid several holes, perhaps a second alteration took place when they put in a practice facility.

It was a holiday destination spot, with the Pines usually being the prefered course due to bugs on the Bay course, but in the fall with a bit of wind it was a great spot.