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Rich Goodale

Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« on: November 18, 2008, 02:56:47 AM »
http://www.hamptons.com/sm_files/hamptons_article_long_island_321.htm

Found this whilst trolling the internet.  It's the first piece I've read which brings Seth Raynor to life, with interesting anecdotes, such as the fact that he helped his father do the surveying for the original Shinnecock in 1891!

Peter Galea

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2008, 07:14:36 AM »
Nice find, Rich.
"chief sherpa"

Rich Goodale

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2008, 07:19:33 AM »
So it's YOU who is "Far and Sure."  Damn, you've aged well, Pete!

Rich

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2008, 08:37:29 AM »
it was written by Mary Cummings a relative of Raynor's I've been in touch with for quite a while.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Rich Goodale

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2008, 08:52:11 AM »
I figured as much, George as she said so in the article.  Even if what she says is repeated in your book, the quality of her passion and her prose deserve our attention.

rich

Tom Naccarato

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2008, 08:58:28 AM »
A great article IrcH.

And with that, from a street in Westhampton.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2008, 09:18:10 AM »
Thanks, Rich - that is a good and finely-written profile of Raynor. Others will know this, but I was wondering about the reference to Macdonald convincing Raynor "to strike out on his own" in 1914. What do people think - did Raynor need much convincing from his old mentor at that point, or had he developed his passion and ideas enough to be off and running?

Thanks
Peter


Rich Goodale

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2008, 09:25:30 AM »
Thanks, Peter

To me the article seems to imply that CBM really wasn't interested in creating new golf courses at that time(1914).  Let's face it, the dude was ~60 and is those days that was old.  One thing that is interesting to me is that the article implies that Raynor essentially worked himself to death after going out on his own, and Macdonald withered when left to his own.  I see Raynor as a detail man whereas Macdonald was mostly a "big ideas" sort of guy.  Most projects (golf or otherwise) need both.  In this case, both seemd to suffer from the lack of the other.

Rich

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2008, 11:21:37 AM »
Jean-Paul:

That is a nice article, although when such articles are written by descendants, the point of view of who did what can be a little bit skewed.

I think it's completely accurate to say that Macdonald was tired of golf architecture by 1914 (if not earlier) and that's why he suggested Raynor go out on his own.  And Macdonald had always been a "big ideas" sort of guy; but, he actually liked tinkering with the details of National and trying to improve upon the original construction.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure it's accurate to characterize Raynor as a "details" guy.  He built an awful lot of courses in far-flung places in a short time in the 1920's ... I'm not sure he was on site any more than Donald Ross or Tom Fazio.  He was, after all, an engineer who would think he could draw an accurate plan for someone else to build.  Nobody really knows if the difference between the Redan at Chicago G.C. and the Redan at Shoreacres was Seth Raynor's tinkering, or just because the Redan at Chicago was built under Raynor's supervision and the Redan at Shoreacres was built by another construction superintendent who hadn't spent any time with Macdonald.

They did need each other, but I don't think it's fair to say Macdonald "withered" when Raynor left.  He was already withering, due to his age and to other interests.

TEPaul

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2008, 11:46:05 AM »
In my opinion, the essential reason Macdonald did less architecture than most of us suppose and why he may've tired of it a lot faster than we realize (other than his constant decades long work on his own course---NGLA) is because the guy was always one of those "amateur/sportsmen" designers. In other words, he never got paid because he didn't want to be and he didn't believe in that. He said so himself in his 1926 book.

To get him involved in a project it looks like you had to give him a ton of control and that's why they could only lure him to do Lido by telling him he could do anything he wanted to. Also probably why The Creek Club made him the president of the Kellenworth Corporation that owned the land and now a recently discovered old article mentions that Macdonald was the Chairman of the committee charged with creating Piping Rock golf course, Macdonald's second project in 1913.

On the other hand, it has always just astounded me that Macdonald was never made the president of the USGA or never even got on the so-called "Latter" of the USGA. It just seems like if anyone over here was destined to be that it was Macdonald. I think there were some dynamics going on in that organization for about its first twenty plus years in which he was closely involved with that organization that we just don't know about. I hope someday someone can figure that out and what was going on.

Something tells me even though Macdonald surely was a domineering guy in all kinds of ways that he was also remarkably clever perhaps in some mode of self-survival. In other words, it seems like he had a pretty refined sense of when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I think what he came to realize is that even though he was generally perceived by some or even many as the sort of "go to" guy over here that there were just some he realized he could never dominate or cross and so at some point in the late teens or early 1920s he just sort of bowed out and went into nearly twenty years of an increasingly reclusive mode. It seems like his attitude was "if you need me you know where to find me but if you do things will be on my terms and not yours."

Some sought him out but mostly the reclusiveness progressively predominated until eventually things got to a point that are probably best represented by that letter he sent to Perry Maxwell who sought him out:

"Young man, good luck to you but I would not walk around the corner for another golf course project."

In the interest of the type of historical perspective and discusion I would like to see on this website, I will now add the caveat that what I said in this post is only my opinion, nothing more! Perhaps tomorrow my opinion will change if someone offers something credible to the contrary! ;)

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 12:13:57 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Moore

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2008, 12:41:56 PM »
With respect to the Shoreacres and Chicago Golf Club Redans, I seem to recall that Raynor enaged the same constructuion supervisor at CGC that he had worked with at Shoreacres.  I think I have the name in my notes somewhere.  I don't know how much time Raynor spent on site at Shoreacres but it seems he was in and out a few times at CGC. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2008, 05:23:24 PM »
Dan: the time line concerning Chicago re-do and Shoreacres:

Shoreacres ran roughly between 1916-1921
Chicago between 1921 thru 1923

During the years 1921 and 1922 Raynor had short of 20 courses in process and I don’t know how many more in planning stages, so tying the two IL courses together might be a stretch.

His courses ranged from Rhode Island and NY, Minnesota, Illinois and West Virginia, even Babson Park in Florida but most were in the Northeast.


Raynor going out on his own:

CB built NGLA as a prototype and did a few others for close friendships (Deepdale - Willie Vanderbilt, Creek, where he was on the board, as examples) or for his own interest as in Mid Ocean and the Links Club course or if, as in the case of the Lido project, there was an interesting challenge involved.

Requests came in for many courses when Raynor struck out on his own but CBM did not want to get involved with a lot of course building. He was having his fun tinkering with National and playing golf with his buddies, Judge Morgan O’Brien, among them.

I do not think Raynor wanted to go solo but after he got into it, I think he really enjoyed it but certainly not the volume of work.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2008, 05:25:50 PM »
Tommy N: there were (and still are) quite a few Raynor Drives around. I don't Raynor was the type to do this himself - not that kind of personality
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2008, 05:30:58 PM »
PeterP:  I think Raynor needed a lot of convincing to go it alone.

His earliest concepts were very interesting (first year work with CC Fairfield and the original Greenwich course, as well as the interesting routing and great holes and greens for the Westhampton Beach course).
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Dan Moore

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2008, 06:53:36 PM »
George,

I was simply responding to Tom Doak's comment:

"Nobody really knows if the difference between the Redan at Chicago G.C. and the Redan at Shoreacres was Seth Raynor's tinkering, or just because the Redan at Chicago was built under Raynor's supervision and the Redan at Shoreacres was built by another construction superintendent who hadn't spent any time with Macdonald." 

I will confirm,  but I believe they used the same construction superintendent at CGC that Raynor used at Shoreacres.  Perhaps the difference in Redans was due to MacDonald's involvement at CGC, whereas he may not have been involved at Shoreacres. 

Do we know how involved MacDonald was in the Raynor redesign at CGC?  I know he reviewed Raynor's plans and told the club to leave Raynor alone, but did MacDonald make any site visits during construction?   
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

TEPaul

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2008, 06:58:54 PM »
"....as well as the interesting routing and great holes and greens for the Westhampton Beach course)."


GeorgeB:

Are you sure H.H. Barker didn't design that one?  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2008, 07:05:30 PM »
"It's the first piece I've read which brings Seth Raynor to life,"


J-P Parodi:

It's interesting to me you say that. It's pretty funny sometimes when you think of someone you've never met (in this case Seth Raynor) and you nevertheless form a mental image of him. I have done that with Seth Raynor but not surprisingly my mental image of him is this wonderful guy from Southampton LI who happens to belong to Shinnecock. His name is Joe Raynor and he's related to Seth Raynor. In many ways Joe pretty much fits the description in that article above about Seth Raynor!  ;)

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2008, 07:37:40 PM »
Dan: "Do we know how involved MacDonald was in the Raynor redesign at CGC?  I know he reviewed Raynor's plans and told the club to leave Raynor alone, but did MacDonald make any site visits during construction?   




according to their very detail club history and anything else I have, that is about the CBM involvement at CGC - surprised because it was once his home course

I don't know if you can get a Chicago club history but if you can, get it.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2008, 07:52:45 PM »
George Bahto,

Would it be accurate to state that subsequent to Raynor's death, CBM was not involved and did NOT finish any of his courses ?

The next question is, why not ?

What was CBM's mindset relative to GCA in 1926 ?

George_Bahto

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2008, 10:33:19 PM »
Patrick: as far as I can tell CBM did not have anything to do with the unfinished courses after his good friend died. 

Banks was SR's partner with offices in NYC and it was he who did the cleanup of unfinished courses  (Nearly 30) ......  a few lost contracts and a few courses he couldn't get to but he did pretty good - not bad for a guy who had only been with Raynor for perhaps a little more than a year.

I would say Charlie just wanted to play and diddle with NGLA.

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Peter Pallotta

Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2008, 11:03:12 PM »
George - just noticed your answer. Thanks for that, and for you other posts here.

Peter

jkinney

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Re: Interesting article on Raynor, Macdonald and NGLA
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2008, 11:43:43 PM »
"I would say Charlie just wanted to play and diddle with NGLA".

George Bahto - What you say here is certainly the oral history passed down at The National to this day. And it does make perfect sense for anyone over 60 in that era. He NEVER stopped tinkering with The National. And really, how was he going to do any better ?

What I've wondered over the years is how much or little contact he had with Flynn during the '29-'30 construction of the modern Shinny. Did CBM render any written judgement on the new course there ?

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