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LeeH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TomSteenstrup

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2002, 06:34:21 AM »
Sounds like the 2000 Open Championship setup.

Let's hope for some wind this time.

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2002, 08:27:25 AM »
Great article. LeeH thanks for sharing it. Wish we could bring these gentlemen Dawson and Pepper over here to set up a couple of major venues...

Muirfield is one of my top 10. I can't wait.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

John_Sheehan

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2002, 11:36:02 AM »
To quote David Pepper from this article:

"Of all the golf course’s defences, rough comes right at the bottom of my list of priorities. If you have stringent bunkering - which you certainly have at Muirfield - intelligent pin positions, fast greens and a bit of wind, you have no real need for rough at all."

Music to my ears!  Max Behr and the Good Doctor would love this guy.

Thanks for the post.  I have forwarded to mainly dis-interested parties.  Max's and Mac's work is never done........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2002, 03:26:10 PM »
What a great - and encouraging - article. Pepper's intent sounds wonderful.

Hopefully, they'll have a dry summer to aid him in his quest for fast and firm conditions.

Muirfield has a ruthless knack of idenitifying the better player, eh?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2002, 09:03:56 PM »
The first thing I was taught when I first visited Muirfield was their  version of a flop shot carried out in knee deep rough.This merely returns the ball to the fairway.Given some wind the tournament will be frustrating and interesting to the pros as it's not a question of holding the green from the rough but a question of getting to a playable surface and then to the green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2002, 02:10:36 PM »
What is everyone's favorite hole on the front? Why?

The back? Why?

I would opt for the 7th on the front - the skyline green with its hazards sunk around it makes for a very tough one shotter. Plus, isn't the back to front pitch the most severe on the course? I will never forget brother John putting off the front and into the left bunker - the caddies were laughing louder than his concerned brothers/father. That was in 1981 but I remember it as if it was yesterday  ;D

On the back, especially since the 13th has been lengthened, the 17th would get my vote. In fact, while it may not be as famous as the 13th at Augusta National, I would almost place it as its equal, especially for those of us who can't go for the 13th in two. From Nicklaus hitting a five iron onto the green in two in 1967 to Faldo hitting a five iron onto the green in three in 1987, the hole plays equally well in either wind. Those pits 100 yards shy of the front of the green are surely the most effective, intimidating cross bunkers that I've ever seen. And the green complex tucked in the way it is is very appealing as well.

My all-world eclectic course has always ended:

15. Prestwick
16. Cypress Point
17. Muirfield
18. St. Andrews

for as long as I can remember. Hopefully, we'll get to see the 17th in both winds this July.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2002, 05:49:37 PM »
Getting well acquainted with the course over the last few weeks, and not wanting to mention again those holes of which Ran spoke, I will nominate the 3rd on the front (narrowly beating out the 6th, which is the finest driving hole on the course) and the 15th on the back.

The 3rd is just a classic example of using the brain for placing a tee shot on the left, and a fine example of a 380 yard hole where excessive length is undesirable, but not in an obvious 'you must lay up' kind of way.  The shouldering dunes at 100 yards from the green also present magnificent recovery attempts for the wayward approaches.  Visually, the preferred line of play appears to be in the left rough, optical trickery that is glossed over by the in-and-out visitor types.  The green is fairly simple, but strickly fronted to reinforce the driving angle.


Looking back on the 3rd from the 4th tee.

As for the 15th, I guess it took me a few trips around the course to actually realize what a fabulous view the player is afforded over the buckthorn to the Firth of Forth and Edinburgh beyond.  Aesthetics aside, this hole is a cross hazard clinic, at least from the medal (left) tees.  The drive must carry a triple diagonal row of bunkers.  The line over the longest part of the carry has more leeway for the next stretch of flanking bunkers, but leaves a difficult angle in to the crowned green.  The ideal line flirts with the right hand bunker, and allows the approach to be played against the slope of the green instead of across it.  The third cluster of bunkers, about 80 yards short of the green, is an interestingly staggered cross hazard, although the central bunker (closest to the green) is the most visually intimidating for the approach.  This staggered effect allows low shots to shoot closely around the central bunker, and perhaps hold the green if possessing the proper shape.  Throw in a green that is surrounded by treacherous bunkers itself and where lags from the wrong side are generally unsuccessful, and you have a fine golf hole, IMO.


The staggered cross hazards in the approach to the 15th.
CH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2002, 03:14:08 PM »
Chris,

Excellent  :D to see some pics from there - do you have any more to share? I imagine that it's a tough course to photograph well.

In looking at your pic, I wonder if perhaps that right hillock on 3 is man-made? I had never thought about it before and it certainly creates a very appealing gap effect as you say.

What is behind the 15th green? Is it a dune and/or tall trees? You mention buckthorns - would further views be opened up if the trees were removed (assuming it's still club property)?

Apart from being so well bunkered as you say, I remember the 15th for having one of the most interesting greens on the course.

Of course, Faldo's approach in there against Cook has to rank amongst the great shots of the modern era.

For the continual quality of its holes, for its stern and sometimes bleak test, for the penal nature of its bunkers, for the tall grasses should one stray, for the historic atmosphere that pervades the place, and for the lack of players on any given day, I am reminded of Chicago GC.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2002, 02:33:56 AM »
Ran-

Regarding your questions, it never occured to me that the right hillock could be totally manmade.  Certainly the dirt from the excavated bunkers could have been pushed around a bit, but that area around the 4th tee is about as close as you get to the visible existing dunes adjacaent to the course, so it seems plausible that it was there originally. Except for the 13th complex, of course.

Behind the 15th directly are bunkers, the 2nd green, and then the wall.  The buckthorn is on the other side of the wall, so I don't know if that is the club's property.  HCEG owns most of the land between the course and the Firth, though.  Also, the non-native, invasive buckthorn does shield the course from residential views in Gullane.  You can occasionally hear people singing or talking on the phone in their gardens coming up the 2nd fairway.  The picture I posted clearly does not give you the best view, which is better from the left tee or the high sand hill in between the left and right tee locations.  

So whether the view would be improved or not with the removal of the buckthorn is quite the conundrum--trees and a bit of water view or a lot of water and a bit of housing.  

There has been talk around Gullane about removing as much buckthorn as possible from the various golf courses becuase of its negative impact on the bird life in the area, with one scenario including the reintroduction of a certain highland sheep variety to keep the overgrowth away after it has been cleared!  Unlikely, but fun to imagine Gullane Hill with grazing once again.

As for the 15th green, it is likely the most interesting on the course in my estimation as well, along with the 2nd, 5th, 8th, and 11th.  I do have more pictures as well, and I will try and post some as (if?) they become topically relevant.

Interestingly, the 2nd and 15th greens are right next to each other, as are the 5th and 11th greens.  I suppose it logically follows that these areas had nice subtle contours when the holes were conceived.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2002, 10:45:15 AM »
Colt's bio has the routing plan that he did for Muifield when he did the almost total redesign (reroute) in 1926.  The 3rd on that plan doesn't have the pinched fairway but instead has 3 cross bunkers at that distance.  So I think perhaps Ran is correct that the righ hand hillock is man-made.  I know that Tom Simpson did some work on the course after Colt so perhaps this was his idea?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2002, 03:05:58 PM »
Paul:

Since much of Simpson's work at Muirfield (or what I have heard) had to do with the filling in of bunkers, perhaps he simply filled in the central of the three cross bunkers at that distance to allow for the run-up shot?  There are still two there left and right, and both sit into the sides of the dunes fairly comfortably.  I have not seen any of Colt's plans, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2002, 07:14:20 PM »
Paul, Very interesting - where is that routing plan exactly (i.e. which Colt bio are you refering/who was the author)? Obviously Colt's own Essays in 1920 are silent on the matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2002, 09:46:23 PM »
Ran

It's in Colt and Co by Hawtree.  Gil Hanse actually draws the routing plans, before (1920) and after Colt (1928), all drawn beautifully to scale for comparison.  All the holes are different apart from 7 and 8 which are the same shape but with remodelled greens.  The 9th looks somewhat similar too, but lengthened.  Like Chris states, there are more bunkers in Colt's plan.  

Today I was at the USGA library (What a place! It even has club histories from some tiny clubs in the UK.) and happened to browse a Muirfield club book.  It shows that 1928 routing (Colt's) and does show the 3rd hole narrowing to a neck and it looks pretty much identical to the current hole except there's and extra bunker on the right. I think Gill Hanse must have just left that detail out of his copy.

The book also does mention that approx 100 bunkers have been removed since Colt's design.  But looking at my current stroke saver and Gil's drawing that looks like an exaggeration, about 50 have been filled in through the years.  Nearly all the startegic ones are still there, but there are a few quirky bunker collections, like a diagonal string of bunkers between the 17th green, through the rough to the edge of the 18th fairway!? And a very long line of bunkers down the right hand side of the 1st.

Simpson did add that central strategic bunker at the 9th (in 1933) and looking at the club history shows that he wanted lacey edged bunkers!  Obviously didn't catch on.

Colt could "go nuts" with bunkers if the property suited it.  Here at Muirfield he had about 190 (now 140) and a little known Surrey course of his,Tandridge, had 300 at one time (now far fewer).  Compare this with his work at Portrush, where with more dramatic terrain he only had about 30 odd bunkers if you ignore the flat 18th which has loads.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2002, 11:22:59 PM »
Archie Baird showed me the greener grass over the bunkers that have been filled in.The sand simply holds more moisture. Once you are aware of the contrasting color it is easy to spot the large number of removed bunkers.He said that Simpson alone filled in about 60 plus bunkers.During the depression this was required for economy.Interesting fact-only one bunker at Muirfield is named-Simpson's Bunker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will W

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2002, 12:45:14 PM »
thought i'd bring this up as The Open is coming up (can't wait).  chris hunt, is there any chance you'd be able to post a hole by hole of muirfield similar to what bruceski did (thanks again bruce!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Hunt

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2002, 04:39:01 PM »
Will:

I will try to do something similar, although my photos were not taken on the best of days.  Perhaps I can get out and take a few more in the next couple days.  

Give me a few days to put some holes together.

CH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2002, 05:36:43 PM »
Chris,

Thank you for your consideration and I'll really look forward to seeing more pics of one of my favorites...Muirfield.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2002, 01:32:07 AM »
The philosophy of those connected with THE Open highlights why it is the most important and fascinating major to watch of them all. Carnoustie aside, the set up each year rewards agressive play, encourages players to show some flair, and accepts the birdie as an integral part of the game. The actual score at the end of the tournament is of little importance. Its all about risk/reward and dealing with the conditions of the day.

This is why the US Open will always represent a compromise in my opinion. Whats the difference in the course set up of the US Open and the PGA anyway? Bethpage could have been so much better if they'd have cut the rough on the dead side of the fairway and at least given the field some options.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will W

Re: Muirfields philosophy for the Open
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2002, 06:41:57 AM »
thanks chris!  looking forward to your posting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »