Greens divided by chipping or putting areas.

[paul cowley]

This idea occurred to me while reading one of the Biarritz threads.

What if a green was separated by a putting or chipping area?

The true Biarritz would be a good example....where the mid swale would be closely mown...reducing the amount of green space, but this closely mowed area would still be a key part of the green complex.

This concept doesn't necessarily have to be a swale....it could also be a ridge or some other convex feature.....and the green could be set on a diagonal, or even a sideways Biarritz  [as Jeff B likes to describe them].

I know that anything novel is rarely new [except the concept of building massive historical landforms and structures that are relevant to the holes strategic makeup....and I am not referring to just a stone wall being built into a hole].

...and in advance of those who will decry the use of clubs other than putters as a play option....well that's why we carry green repair tools.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I like the idea and the same thing occured to me yesterday when that interesting information about Piping's original Biarritz green resurfaced.

But you know me---eg I can always find some other good reasons to do something like this. I think most clubs need to develop not just a really good membership admission philosophy and strategy, and if they can manage to do that they should be able to also develop a really good membership "Exit" philosophy and strategy. With a green divided into parts by something like you suggest it can help serve that membership "Exit" strategy.

Oh sure, I realize there probably are such things as 'green fixing tools' but my suggestion would be that anybody seen attempting to chip or pitch from one green section to the other should be immediately shown "The Gate". The club can even arrange to have their automobile with their street shoes and clothes in it delivered to their home or whatever by separate currier.

[Adam Clayman]

Not sure I'm following because I've seen this used many places. I.e. Jasper park's connection of bad baby to the next. Or the amorphousness seen at Sebonack. Lawsonia's exit strategies too.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

I think Paul's idea is an interesting one and should be discussed and explored and I do not want to divert this thread with something like a club membership "exit" strategy. 

[Joe Hancock]

Paul,

Mike DeVries was going to implement a Biarritz green adjoining the green behind it(with apron height turf) at Sunningdale CC in NY. The Biarritz green would be on the par 3 8th, with the par 4 4th green directly behind it.

Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control, this Fall's work was cut short and the Biarritz will have to wait until the next phase of work there.

Obviously, we like the idea as well.

Hope you're well, physically...... ...we all know how you are mentally!

Joe

[TEPaul]

"I know that anything novel is rarely new [except the concept of building massive historical landforms and structures that are relevant to the holes strategic makeup....and I am not referring to just a stone wall being built into a hole]."


Paul:

I realize you are an expert in military history and I was wondering if you've ever run across any vestiges of Greek or Roman military installations over here in the Americas that could be used in golf architecture or a hole concept? How about Egyptian?

By the way how has your search been going for anything the Aliens may've left?

I haven't talked to you in a long time now and you know I've always admired your penchant and inclination to think outside the box in the context of golf course architecture. This idea is not even close to fully developed in my mind but I want to talk to you about the idea of doing what I might call some really good "Politically Incorrect" golf architecture somewhere. Do you have any ideas on that? Well, pay it not much mind at the moment, just let it simmer and stew for a while and we will talk later.

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul - something along the line of Joe's post is what first occured to me - basically the image of greens being double greens. which combined with, say, an "S"-curve from the tee really opens things up, playing-options-wise. Also, I'd imagine your idea could look wonderful too - something like mass-planting flowers doesn't make the rose bush seem less natural but more.

Peter

[Adam Clayman]

Tom. I was referencing green exit strategies not membership.

[TEPaul]

Peter:

Paul Cowley is very much into curves as a design element and concept. This is the man who conceived of what he calls the "Curves of Charm" that he took from the idea of Max Behr's "Lines of Charm."

I'm being very serious now. This "Curves of Charm" of Paul's really does have true potential and even if I don't completely understand it I sense it is also very democratic (if you know what I mean). He really does think outside-the-box and with golf architecture I think that has to be a very good thing.

[TEPaul]

"Tom. I was referencing green exit strategies not membership."

Adam:

Oh, sorry; I misunderstood.

Good point. As for the niggly possibility of golfers trying to chip from one green section to another with something other than a putter I guess a club could apply the Wrong Putting Green Relief Rule but personally I view that as unideal.

[Sean_A]

I can't recall which course it was, I think Lehigh.  There is controlled stream hard in front of a green.  I immediately thought it would be cool to create green space in front of the water as well.  Its not quite the same as the Biarritz concept, but I thought it interesting just the same.  

I did see a course that essentially had a double green, but a long, skinny bunker divided the two halves, which was used for two holes.  It was wild and a bit dangerous.

I haven't come across a Biarritz style green which has been used as craftily as North Berwick's 16th.  Its a great use of the oob, which is an element of the hole many folks forget about in their awe of the green.  Not ever having much luck with trying to get tight to the oob to get more of a straight on approach, I think the next time I am there I will go wide left and try a runner up the bank.  It doesn't sound promising given the narrowness of the green.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"I haven't come across a Biarritz style green which has been used as craftily as North Berwick's 16th.  Its a great use of the oob, which is an element of the hole many folks forget about in their awe of the green."


Sean Arble:

BINGO!

You should start a thread on a far more exact copy of NB's 16th green that could be used as a really interesting par 3 green. Why don't we just name it "The Berwick?" As you know many of us suspect that Macdonald must have pulled the concept of the mid green huge swale in the middle of an enormous and long green from NB's 16th and likely not from the Biarritz green in France which apparently had nothing like that particular and dramatic seminal architectural feature.

Talk to us about the details of what's around that enormous green of NB's 16th. It's more fall off chipping area than side flanking bunkers like Macdonald's American Biarritz iteration, isn't it?

By the way, what's an "oob"?

Whatever it is, Sean, if you agree to give up your common use of words like "archie", "cuz" and "spose", I guarantee you I will work my ass off to see to it that your word "oob", whatever it means, gets into the world's dictionaries someday soon!  Deal?

[Sean_A]

"I haven't come across a Biarritz style green which has been used as craftily as North Berwick's 16th.  Its a great use of the oob, which is an element of the hole many folks forget about in their awe of the green."


Sean Arble:

BINGO!

You should start a thread on a far more exact copy of NB's 16th green that could be used as a really interesting par 3 green. Why don't we just name it "The Berwick?" As you know many of us suspect that Macdonald must have pulled the concept of the mid green huge swale in the middle of an enormous and long green from NB's 16th and likely not from the Biarritz green in France which apparently had nothing like that particular and dramatic seminal architectural feature.

Talk to us about the details of what's around that enormous green of NB's 16th. It's more fall off chipping area than side flanking bunkers like Macdonald's American Biarritz iteration, isn't it?

By the way, what's an "oob"?

Whatever it is, Sean, if you agree to give up your common use of words like "archie", "cuz" and "spose", I guarantee you I will work my ass off to see to it that your word "oob", whatever it means, gets into the world's dictionaries someday soon!  Deal?

Tom

Well, you've managed to confuse me yet again.  No matter, its a state of being I am well used to.

oob = out of bounds, but I bet CCR put this word in for short when writing their ooby dooby lyrics - hee hee.

It sounds stupid, but I bet if you created NB's 16th green for a par 3 (it would have to be a short one - something like the Postage Stamp if not shorter) people would scream bloody murder.  No doubt it would be a severe target.  Just imagine how folks played the 16th 80 years ago?  Heck, I can recall having to hit layup short of the water there and hit 3 wood in - severe it is! 

If I recall correctly, the place to miss is beyond the length of the green long.  Left and right are a no no.  I suspect if one leaves the approach short on the long axis of the green it was a huge mistake because that is terribly close to oob (ooby dooby for you). 

Something just struck me as I look at the new World Atlas.  The 16th is depicted as two greens with some  grass other than a green depicted as bisecting the green.  Of course, how else can this green be shown graphically in 2D to convey the swale.  I wonder if some fool will look at this graphic 100 years from now and conclude there should be no green in that swale?

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

This idea occurred to me while reading one of the Biarritz threads.

What if a green was separated by a putting or chipping area?

The true Biarritz would be a good example....where the mid swale would be closely mown...reducing the amount of green space, but this closely mowed area would still be a key part of the green complex.

This concept doesn't necessarily have to be a swale....it could also be a ridge or some other convex feature.....and the green could be set on a diagonal, or even a sideways Biarritz  [as Jeff B likes to describe them].

I know that anything novel is rarely new [except the concept of building massive historical landforms and structures that are relevant to the holes strategic makeup....and I am not referring to just a stone wall being built into a hole].

...and in advance of those who will decry the use of clubs other than putters as a play option....well that's why we carry green repair tools.

We need Paul to better explain his notion.
 The Biarritz description almost covers it, but that is essentially two greens. Ala, the former second at Poopy Hills. Or is it like the 'E" green concept with the sections separated by what Paul calls short puttable grass.

The other aspect that comes to my mind is the 6th at Riviera. Since Dan and Dave paid homage on the 17th at Bayside and I recently had to chip over the bunker twice, it's fresh in my mind as similar in concept, only it's a bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This idea occurred to me while reading one of the Biarritz threads.

What if a green was separated by a putting or chipping area?

I think it's a bad idea.

The true Biarritz would be a good example....where the mid swale would be closely mown...reducing the amount of green space, but this closely mowed area would still be a key part of the green complex.

Paul, within a short period of time that area would be nothing but dirt since balls would be fed into it with golfers chipping and wedging back to the green.

The 8th hole at Deepdale is a good example.
The incline of the green and approach, combined with the speed of the green causes ball after ball, that was once on the green to roll/feed back to a spot about 50 yards from the center of the green.  That area is almost all dirt with some intermitent grass.

If a Biarritz was fairway or fringe, wedges would decimate it in short order.

It would be unmaintainable in the context of a quality surface.

This concept doesn't necessarily have to be a swale....it could also be a ridge or some other convex feature.....and the green could be set on a diagonal, or even a sideways Biarritz  [as Jeff B likes to describe them].

Once a feature feeds balls to a predetermined spot it becomes a maintainance problem.

I know that anything novel is rarely new [except the concept of building massive historical landforms and structures that are relevant to the holes strategic makeup....and I am not referring to just a stone wall being built into a hole].

...and in advance of those who will decry the use of clubs other than putters as a play option....well that's why we carry green repair tools.


You'll need shovels and wheelbarrows and lots of sod 

[Tyler Kearns]

Paul,

I have seen this unique concept used before, at Wildflower in Detroit Lakes, Minnesota, designed by Joel Goldstrand.  I have attached a photo of the par 3 11th, and a similar situation exists on the 16th, where two small green spaces are separated by a closely mown tier.  It certainly can add some challenge to the putt, calculating the extra weight needed to get through the fringe-height grass.

TK

(GCA site won't let me attach photo as uploader is full?) So, here is a link to the photo,

http://www.wildflowergolfcourse.com/images/4_11.jpg

[BCrosby]

Paul -

Not quite the same thing, but MacK built two or three boomerang greens at ANGC. I think they would function much like your Biarritz concept, but without the maintenance/collection problems Patrick mentions.

You might have seen is the 13th(?) at CC of the South. Nicklaus designed an enormous green divided by a creek running diagonally through the middle of it. An interesting hole.

Bob

[paul cowley]

Gee guys...sorry about the delay, but I have been working today in the deeper recesses of the 3,000 acre river swamp....no Joe, I didn't say retreating ...did see panther tracks though.

Adam....to clarify, I mean a green divided in two by the afore mentioned swale/ridge scenario.

Tom....all that you suggest can be explored, clarified, amplified, whatever,  over a few good bottles of our choice....actually I'm exploring  starting a Boutique Vodka Distillery [if you care to invest]. Maybe we could have a few thoughts over sips of Satilla River Distillery's "Sweet Swamp Water Tea Flavored Vodka"..... I miss you man!

Patrick...I'm suggesting subtle play options, not any different than those found in green side chipping/putting areas. Extreme maintenance situations would only occur because of the few that don't have a clue of how to play the game, and you can't design for them.

Sean....as you suggest, #16 North Berwick would be a good example of this concept if the separating mid swale was closely mown instead of green surface. As steep as it is, I wonder if this was not the situation in days long ago.

Joe...the body is great...and the mind seems similar...except my vantage point is from the inside looking out.