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Sean_A

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Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« on: October 01, 2008, 03:11:23 AM »
On the Tilly thread a few people put forth the proposition that we shouldn't look at courses built back in the day with the eyes of today.  That got me to thinking why not?  Isn't it timelessness that we all praise in the very best courses?  Sure, these great old classics have been altered somewhat, but often what makes them great is what was there originally or soon after being built.  It seems to me that we should be looking at courses with what we know and respect today in mind.  I would contend that there isn't much difference today as 85 years ago what people consider to be cream of the crop architecture.  Most of the best design elements we see today were in place 85 years ago so.  In fact, as has been noted many times on this site, we are currently in an architectural renaissance built mainly on golden age principles.

Besides, how exactly do we see classic courses with the eyes of a contemporary?

Ciao 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 03:23:37 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Sheehan

Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2008, 03:43:40 AM »
Sean,
You make a good point.  However, in some cases, maybe we should attempt to see through that era's eyes, if only to appreciate what they were doing.  Film director Hitchcock was (I think) the first to put a camera on a dolly.  Orson Welles first changed the plane of camera angles.  Today, those techniques are common.  But they did it first and it was revolutionary.  When we watch their movies, part of the appreciation comes from knowing they did it first.  To the eyes of their era the effects were stunning, dramatic, disorienting to the audiences.

To appreciate some of the older architecture, perhaps we also need to keep that in mind. 

But, as you have so aptly said, "timelessness" is part of what we appreciate.  Those movies have qualities that are timeless and that is why we still love them today, even though some of the techniques that were revolutionary then are commonplace now.  Doing something first might reserve a prominent place in some pantheons, but the overall impact of the work must also have a timeless quality that draws us back over and over. That might be true for both film and golf courses.

I just watched Casablanca for the zillionth time last Friday.  I still love every corny minute of it.

It's still the same old story
A fight for love and glory
A case of do or die
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by....

Those lyrics might have been written about cross-bunkers and risk/reward.
 

Thomas MacWood

Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2008, 08:13:17 AM »
If your goal is to identify the best golf courses today, then the answer is no. If you are interested in understanding the history of golf architecture, then yes, you need historical perspective.

There are many on this site who prefer some of these dated gems, like Huntercombe, Myopia and Mayfield. Although you will not find them on too many lists of the best courses, they are very fun to play today, which is an important criteria for any course in any era. But I also think it is important to know in their time they were considered much more than fun, they were on a very short list of the best courses in the world.

It should also be noted that there is fairly large group who does not care for the quirkiness of these older courses, and that revolt against quirkiness has been going on for some time. Sometimes the only way to judge an old course is through the eyes of that era due to the fact it has been totally overhauled and all you have are old records. Tilly's original Shawnee and Brook Hollow are good examples.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2008, 09:46:08 AM »
Sean,

I completely agree with what Tom Mac stated. I would also like to add this, the REASON that it was stated that we should view the courses mentioned with the eyes of of that era was because the question posed was whether or not Tilly had ever designed a mediocre course.

In this day of 300-yard drives becoming routine, a course with 8 350-yard par-fours appears pretty tame. But in 1912 when it was designed these were challenging holes.

A golf course should be judged through the eyes that first experience it to appreciate its RELATIVE value as a design.

An example, the movie The Day The Earth Stood Still. When that first came out it was considered ground-breaking, brilliant and terrified a generation of movie-goers at just the possibility of it happening.

Todays youth raised upon television commercials so sophisticated that the computer power used to produce them exceeds all the computing force used to put Neil Armstrong on the moon just looks at the movie and yawns and complains about how boring and stupid it is.

What is constantly forpotten is just how ground-breaking many of these old courses were when they opened. Forgotten is how THOSE COURSES inspired a generation of people to want to learn how to play golf and that they instilled a passion in them to do so, and a passion that in many cases far exceeds what most people who play the game today experience.

To label those courses as of poor quality then by judging their quality through todays eyes is a dishonor to the game and all who have come before. It will also allow eyes far in the future to view the incredible designs of today as boring and wastes of time to play because they will have been raised by those who showed little or no respect for the past and the hitory of the game...

Time to step down from the soap box!

TEPaul

Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2008, 09:45:18 PM »
"Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?"

Sean:

I don't think there is any question that one should try to view courses and architecture through the eyes of those who were doing it in any particular era---and certainly if one is interested in truly understanding the evolution and history of golf course architecture.

It is extremely easy for us today to forget all the things they did know in various eras in the evolution of golf architecture that we know now, particularly architecture in the second half of the 19th century.

If we do not understand what they did not know or did not do back then we can never understand or appreciate the things they did and how and the reasons why.

85 years ago the differences with today were not so massive, but 125 years ago, particularly INLAND, they certainly were! The latter era is the one we need to understand better to have a fuller understanding of how golf course architecture really did begin to evolve as it did even to the point of 85 years ago.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 09:48:58 PM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 02:09:45 AM »
The Tilly thread was a perfect example.  How in the world can one guess if some archie built a clunker how ever many years ago?  Its a question that has no answer and any answer folks come up with has no meaning or value.  This is the sort of stuff we try to figure out with our guess work and it seems to me that it is pointless and probably goes a long way toward firmly establishing beliefs based on how we see things today - not in fact how things were back in the day.  If the Merion threads taught us anything is that folks get entrenched in beliefs whether or not there is hard evidence.  The reason this happens, imo, is that folks lay their opinions down as based "expert opinion" which is used in a way as to replace facts.  Is it this guess work of trying to view things from the perspective of the "ancients" which causes division? 

Would it not be better to have opposing theories (for that is what the vast majority of this research really boils down - opinion based on limited knowledge) with the facts as central elements in a sort of work in progress instead of turf wars when neither side has the smoking gun (which often may not exist anyway)?  Is it not possible to gain an understanding of architectural history without trying to guess at what people thought/built 110 years ago?  How much do we actually need to know to benefit the present and future?  Where does the guess work lead us?

Ciao 


New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 01:07:18 PM »
Sean, you are asking enduring questions that, as many who have already written on this thread have shown, applies to many disciplines other than golf course architecture. I was particularly struck by something you said in your last paragraph - "Would it not be better to have opposing theories (for that is what the vast majority of this research really boils down - opinion based on limited knowledge) with the facts as central elements in a sort of work in progress instead of turf wars when neither side has the smoking gun (which often may not exist anyway)?"

What this made me think of is the difference between coming to some kind of satisfactory understanding of history yourself, and the difficulty you face in getting someone (much less everyone) else to go along with your conclusions. You talk about facts as if they are capable of proving an argument, and while sometimes they do, it is the selection of which facts to consider important, and how one goes about integrating those facts into a cogent theory that proves to be a sticky wicket indeed.

Let's say that you go back and look at the accounts written of a new course upon its opening, and find they are all glowing reviews. Does this mean that the course really WAS great? How do you really know what the preconceived notions or biases of those reporters really were? You might read that Bobby Jones himself loved the course. But didn't he dislike TOC at first sight? How many times did he play the course in question? I'd probably be more likely to figure that a course really was great when it opened if Mr. Jones said so, but it's still really my opinion on that matter, unless you consider Bobby Jones (or anyone else) to be infallible.

And what if the reviews were uniformly negative? How many great works of literature or paintings or movies or pieces of music faced initial critical negativity, only to blossom later? Who was wrong there?

Maybe you're right that such questions don't have real answers, and that all the guesswork of amateur or professional historians don't have significant meaning or value. But I have a different take on it, and feel like all the stretching toward the answers has immense value, and is in fact all we have when it comes to thinking about history. Hard facts might be easy to come by - dates and names and deeds, but history is mighty cold if that's all you've got. To my mind it's in the attempt to put meat on those bones that we discover the most regarding what past events were all about, and perhaps get a glimpse into the minds and the lives of the people who created that history, or played those golf courses!

Attempting to gain insight into the perspectives of the life and times of the historical people and events and creations we're researching (or reading about, or considering, or whatever word you want to use) is surely confounding, and perhaps ultimately impossible. Hey, try to have the perspective of a child starving right now in a Rio slum, or an old man living out his days in Algiers, or a soccer mom getting her nails done in Parker, Colorado. Impossible, really.

I'm senselessly rambling here, when all I'm trying to say is this - truth exists only in the moment that it happens. Any thought about what is yet to be is conjecture, and any thought about what came before is opinion. But that doesn't mean that attempting to predict or alter the future isn't worthwhile, or that attempting to unravel the past is a hopeless exercise. All you can do is consider the opinions of others, take in the facts as they exist, and render an opinion of your own. That's where the fun is, that's where the interest is. And if you manage to get a few other people to agree with you, well, that's gravy.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 01:36:48 PM »
Sean, you are asking enduring questions that, as many who have already written on this thread have shown, applies to many disciplines other than golf course architecture. I was particularly struck by something you said in your last paragraph - "Would it not be better to have opposing theories (for that is what the vast majority of this research really boils down - opinion based on limited knowledge) with the facts as central elements in a sort of work in progress instead of turf wars when neither side has the smoking gun (which often may not exist anyway)?"

What this made me think of is the difference between coming to some kind of satisfactory understanding of history yourself, and the difficulty you face in getting someone (much less everyone) else to go along with your conclusions. You talk about facts as if they are capable of proving an argument, and while sometimes they do, it is the selection of which facts to consider important, and how one goes about integrating those facts into a cogent theory that proves to be a sticky wicket indeed.

Let's say that you go back and look at the accounts written of a new course upon its opening, and find they are all glowing reviews. Does this mean that the course really WAS great? How do you really know what the preconceived notions or biases of those reporters really were? You might read that Bobby Jones himself loved the course. But didn't he dislike TOC at first sight? How many times did he play the course in question? I'd probably be more likely to figure that a course really was great when it opened if Mr. Jones said so, but it's still really my opinion on that matter, unless you consider Bobby Jones (or anyone else) to be infallible.

And what if the reviews were uniformly negative? How many great works of literature or paintings or movies or pieces of music faced initial critical negativity, only to blossom later? Who was wrong there?

Maybe you're right that such questions don't have real answers, and that all the guesswork of amateur or professional historians don't have significant meaning or value. But I have a different take on it, and feel like all the stretching toward the answers has immense value, and is in fact all we have when it comes to thinking about history. Hard facts might be easy to come by - dates and names and deeds, but history is mighty cold if that's all you've got. To my mind it's in the attempt to put meat on those bones that we discover the most regarding what past events were all about, and perhaps get a glimpse into the minds and the lives of the people who created that history, or played those golf courses!

Attempting to gain insight into the perspectives of the life and times of the historical people and events and creations we're researching (or reading about, or considering, or whatever word you want to use) is surely confounding, and perhaps ultimately impossible. Hey, try to have the perspective of a child starving right now in a Rio slum, or an old man living out his days in Algiers, or a soccer mom getting her nails done in Parker, Colorado. Impossible, really.

I'm senselessly rambling here, when all I'm trying to say is this - truth exists only in the moment that it happens. Any thought about what is yet to be is conjecture, and any thought about what came before is opinion. But that doesn't mean that attempting to predict or alter the future isn't worthwhile, or that attempting to unravel the past is a hopeless exercise. All you can do is consider the opinions of others, take in the facts as they exist, and render an opinion of your own. That's where the fun is, that's where the interest is. And if you manage to get a few other people to agree with you, well, that's gravy.

Kirk

I hear what you are saying and can largely agree with you.  I just want to make it clear that I am talking specifically about gca in this case.  Why, because I believe that gca is largely a subjective subject.  Its hard enough to pin down one's own feelings and agree with them on a daily basis let alone try to pin down what others believed 100 years ago.  I think, in the case of gca, all we have are facts until a widley accepted story can be told.  What is considered enough facts to carry a coherent story along?  I don't know.  What I do know is that potentially very valuable time and knowledge is wasted on turf wars.  I also know that whether or not X club was built Joe Bloggs or Jane Doe is largely irrelevant in the big scheme of things.  What is vastly more important is what we have today and how we can preserve it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 01:54:20 PM »
What is vastly more important is what we have today and how we can preserve it.

I agree with this sentiment, but even in this area I think we're talking about trying to pin down a moving target. Do we preserve what's on the ground today? Do we go renovate courses to be as they were when first designed? Or is there an iteration in between that was the "best" one, and "most deserving" to be preserved?

Perhaps "turf wars" (no pun intended) are inevitable when talking about golf courses and their histories. Perhaps civility of discourse is all we can ask for in these differences of opinion. But at some point the opinion of one person (or a couple people, or a committee of people) was made real upon the ground, and ultimately it's THAT opinion and THOSE choices that matter the most to all of us who end up playing the course and find ourselves agreeing or disagreeing with what was done there. And therein lies the interest in the identity and background of the people who made those choices.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 03:00:56 PM »
This is too important a topic to let it die.  I have an overseas membership at Royal North Devon.  If you cut your teeth on Tom Fazio or Robert Trent Jones you will probably walk off the course.  I showed a picture of the humpy bumpy sixth hole at RND to a friend of mine.  "I hate it," was his reply.  He has never played in GB&I.  The same can be said of North Berwick or even a course like Shoreacres.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 04:48:57 AM »
What is vastly more important is what we have today and how we can preserve it.

I agree with this sentiment, but even in this area I think we're talking about trying to pin down a moving target. Do we preserve what's on the ground today? Do we go renovate courses to be as they were when first designed? Or is there an iteration in between that was the "best" one, and "most deserving" to be preserved?

Perhaps "turf wars" (no pun intended) are inevitable when talking about golf courses and their histories. Perhaps civility of discourse is all we can ask for in these differences of opinion. But at some point the opinion of one person (or a couple people, or a committee of people) was made real upon the ground, and ultimately it's THAT opinion and THOSE choices that matter the most to all of us who end up playing the course and find ourselves agreeing or disagreeing with what was done there. And therein lies the interest in the identity and background of the people who made those choices.

Kirk

Of course architecture is a moving target.  When I say we should be concentrating on preservation, I mean for a very few select courses.  Courses which are great examples of early architecture and windows to the past.  If we keep these gems as is we can all have an idea of what chaps in 1910 thought about course architecture.  There isn't much need to try and guess what they believed.  Of course, there can be no sure fire way to preserve what should be so we are left with a far inferior method of understanding gca history by using guess work.  Many folks think they know exactly what the old boys thought and make decisions on how to renovate or restore based on this ideas, but we have to be honest and say at best all we have is a snapshot of what the ODGs thought at any one moment.  Ideas and opinions were changing and evolving - as they still do today. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Should We View Courses With The Eyes Of That Era? New
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 09:14:26 AM »
"To my mind it's in the attempt to put meat on those bones that we discover the most regarding what past events were all about, and perhaps get a glimpse into the minds and the lives of the people who created that history, or played those golf courses!

Attempting to gain insight into the perspectives of the life and times of the historical people and events and creations we're researching (or reading about, or considering, or whatever word you want to use) is surely confounding, and perhaps ultimately impossible. Hey, try to have the perspective of a child starving right now in a Rio slum, or an old man living out his days in Algiers, or a soccer mom getting her nails done in Parker, Colorado. Impossible, really.

I'm senselessly rambling here, when all I'm trying to say is this - truth exists only in the moment that it happens. Any thought about what is yet to be is conjecture, and any thought about what came before is opinion. But that doesn't mean that attempting to predict or alter the future isn't worthwhile, or that attempting to unravel the past is a hopeless exercise. All you can do is consider the opinions of others, take in the facts as they exist, and render an opinion of your own. That's where the fun is, that's where the interest is. And if you manage to get a few other people to agree with you, well, that's gravy."




KirkG:

I don't think you're rambling at all. That post is really good, in my opinion.

There seems to be some underlying inclination on the part of some perhaps even most on here to gain consensus or general agreement for one's opinion. Is that important to do? Is it even remotely necessary? Probably not, and certainly considering how subjective opinions are on golf course architecture and perhaps even should be ideally.

This idea mentioned years ago by the likes of Macdonald and Mackenzie (perhaps independently) that there is some kind of ideal in golf course architecture in creating things that inspire some kind of healthy "controversy" in and with golf course architecture has just fascinated me for years now. At first it just seems so counterintuitive as it just flies in the face of a seemingly natural quest or goal to make everyone like something or accommodate everyone's opinion on things.

Given the nature of golf itself that may be simply impossible to do and a goal that is completely unachievable. Frankly, that alone should probably be considered as the real reason the two of them said such at thing (Controversy is healthy and perhaps "The Ideal").

Macdonald actually wrote that if there is general agreement that this or that element of architecture is good it therefore must be mundane or boring in some way is completely fascinating to me.

There are many things to strive to understand with the history of golf course architecture to me and frankly it even includes the good, the bad, and the ugly at any particular point in time in the history and evolution of architecture. In my mind it all goes into the stew of how and why things got to be the way they were along the journey.

One should simply discuss what they individually really feel about all this, including its history and if others disagree with it, so what? One should even continue to defend why they feel as they do if they really believe it.

More and more I think I appreciate what Bill Coore once said---eg that golf course architecture actually NEEDS difference and perhaps vast difference. I think I even asked him if he personally likes everything---eg golf architecture throughout the spectrum of difference and I believe he said; "Of course not, but others might (and therefore it is probably necessary; at least to continue to establish just how dynamic golf is and how dyanamic the art form and fields of its play should be (?))."

Nevertheless, it does continue to seem counterintuitive but perhaps that is the real beauty and the true ideal in the entire subject of golf architecture. If this is true in some way, it would seem what we need to do on this website is to actually foster differences of opinion, perhaps vast differences of opinion (disagreement) rather than consensus of opinion or general agreement!  ;)

It sure does seem like a tough concept to wrap one's mind around but nevertheless, some pretty wise minds in this business in the past thought of it and put it out there, so I, for one, am going to continue to consider it very, very carefully and what it might really mean in the final analysis.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 09:28:12 AM by TEPaul »

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