The demise of quirk, character and contour ?

[Jason Topp]

I do agree with you concerning matchplay.  Under no circumstances should a player post a score in which he didn't hole out.  The entire idea of a score in matchplay is nonsense and should be creyed doon.

Ciao    

Sean

Under the US system you are required to post a score if you play matchplay.  To not do so would be cheating for handicap purposes.

[Jed Peters]

Let me see if I understand this.

You play matches at your club, for money, against your fellow members.

But, you're allowed to control your handicap by posting a score that you deem would be achieved had you continued to play the hole ?   ?   ?

That's a formula for disaster and cheating.
It's probably one of the easiest ways to pad a handicap.

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable playing against anyone from your club.[/b]

I can't speak to the rest of the universe, but, in the game I've been playing in for many years, everyone finishes the hole.

WHY ?

Because, in order to form a more perfect handicap assessment for everyone, in addition to having a low ball match, we also play a high ball match.  Thus, everyone fights to the finish, and we almost always play in under 4 hours. 

Pat:

You are a good player. You play with other good players.

You don't pick up/conceed holes on a regular basis? Everything is putted out?

Whoa.

Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.

But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).

This comes as a suprise to me, knowing how much competitive amateur golf you've played.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You are a good player. You play with other good players.

I play with a very broad spectrum of golfers, not just good golfers.

In my regular group the higher handicaps start at 24, go down to the high teens, low teens, high single digit to an occassional low digit.

You don't pick up/conceed holes on a regular basis?


Absolutely not, but, here's the reason.

If 12 guys show up, we play in three foursomes, all playing against each other, so no one picks up because there's a high ball match and a low ball match.

In addition, we make two man teams in each group and they play against other two man teams in the other groups.  Those matches are elective.

Then, we play individual matches against fellows in the other groups and sometimes amongst ourselves, so again, nothing is conceded or picked up because you never know what your opponent has scored, so you keep on playing until you hole out.

Same with putts, nothing is conceded.
You'd be surprised how many short putts are missed.

When other guys try to play with our group, they're shocked that putts within the leather aren't conceded.  You get a dicey little sidehill, downhiller that means a lot and you'd be surprised by the number of three putts.

Also, we keep a seperate handicap system.
ONLY scores shot in our group during matches count toward your handicap.
So, our handicaps are brutally efficient.

Guys whose handicaps are based on rounds with their wives or with conceded putts get eaten alive the first month.   Many don't make it to the second month.

And, there's one other thing.

Nothing is sacred, save for one topic, children and grandchildren.
Everything else is fair game, and you'd better have a thick skin and no how to take it.

One fellow joined us and never made it to the 9th tee.
He tried several other times and got as far as the 16th green before calling it a day.
As Rodney Dangerfield said, "It's a tough crowd", and, it's a highly competitive crowd. 

It's the only game I know where 18 handicaps expect to make natural birdies.

But, after the round, we're all friends.

We take a trip of two a year to other destinations.
An available casino is a requirement.

We've been doing this for 40+ years, and it's as much fun today as it was 40 years ago.  We have our moments, but, we've had a great deal of fun and good golfing company.

As to conceded putts, NOTHING is conceded, everything must be putted out because we're not in the same group with those we're competing against.

Everything is putted out?

EVERYTHING !

Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the other groups.

Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.

Once you introduce a high ball match, you can't pick up, your partners will kill you.  Sometimes a 9 or a 10 wins the highball match.

And, we can't concede any putts because it wouldn't be fair to the other groups.

But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).

All of our scores, shot in our competition, are posted.

This comes as a suprise to me, knowing how much competitive amateur golf you've played.

I play the great majority of golf with my friends.

Obviously, in a tournament, concessions are made and taken, but, not in our group.  It's a tough crowd.

[Doug Siebert]

JBriggs,

I'm also not sure if I can go along with "the score I would have recieved".

Hell I can't even count the #of times I've been 20 yards from the green and skulled one into the bunker or over the green, hit the next on, and two putted.  And by the same token, just as much I've knocked that pitch stiff for a nice up and down.  Unless you have a short putt (3 feet or less) the variance would seem to be too large to make a guess, especially for high cappers.

You just stated why it works and didn't even realize it.  Yes, sometimes you will find a way to take 4 strokes to get down from near the green when you would try for 2 and think 3 is your worst case scenario.  On the other hand, once in a while you knock the damn thing in.

If you have a situation where you'd expect that half the time you'll get up and down and half the time you won't, nothing stops you from taking a "half stroke".  You'd just take two strokes down one time, note it, and take three strokes the next time you are in the same situation.

Is it perfectly accurate?  No, but it isn't like the handicap system is completely flawless even if you follow every rule and play every hole out, because most of us are going to add a few strokes playing on a really windy day and there's no adjustment for that.  Or this time of year, when in the next week or two I'll get to look forward to playing on greens that are punched AND so many leaves in the rough that my fairway misses will almost certainly lead to 2 or 4 extra strokes, again not accounted for in the handicap system (there are days when on some holes you can lose balls even hit into the center of the fairway)

I have pointed out many times that someone who wanted to sandbag "honestly" could just play on the days with the worst weather and worst conditions, and achieve a handicap a half dozen strokes higher than it should be, even if they played every round with their pro, their priest and their wife.

[Sean_A]

I do agree with you concerning matchplay.  Under no circumstances should a player post a score in which he didn't hole out.  The entire idea of a score in matchplay is nonsense and should be creyed doon.

Ciao    

Sean

Under the US system you are required to post a score if you play matchplay.  To not do so would be cheating for handicap purposes.

Jason

I don't care what the USGA states.  I think it is a load of nonsense to write down a score when you didn't actually acheive the score.  In their fervor to get people handicapped (what?), which I suspect is part of trying to grow the game, the USGA has gotten this one badly wrong. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Most all good players I play with (including some current Canadian and Nationwide Players) ALL pick up if they're out of a hole, or a putt is conceeded.

But, then again, most don't post non-tournament scores, either because they ONLY play in non-handicapped events, are already below the magic 1.9 index, or are professional (no handicap).

What exatly is this "magic 1.9 index," and why do players already below it not post non-tournament scores?  Surely it is not because they want to maintain an artificially low handicap so they can play in thsoe tournaments.........?

[TEPaul]

"The second green at Pine Valley has to be one of the most unique greens anywhere, but, I wonder, if it existed on another golf course, how long would it last before it was altered/disfigured ?"


Patrick:

While the 2nd green at PV is very unique there is about it something quite different compared to very, very many greens in America and the world and that is even if it is enormous and with those two massive inline (front to back) rolls in it as well as a generally fairly steep back to front pitch, there actually is a way to get the ball from anywhere on that green to any pinnable spot and also to get it close (even given the fairly high greenspeeds they run there). It may take a ton of imagination and execution but believe me it is possible and that cannot be said of numerous other greens in this world.

And THAT may be the real brillance of that 2nd green at PV----eg as intimidating as it may look to putt or chip it really is possible to get the ball close from anywhere on it or around it to any pin they use.

I don't know whether any of you guys have ever heard of the so-called "Zorro" putt you can have on that green to a particular pin placement but it surely is the most amazing putt I've ever seen or had on any golf course that I've played in the world. That particular putt is also the most memorable putt I have ever struck in my life! When I had it and in a tournament match it just seemed so counter-intuitive I really didn't want to try it but my caddie encouraged me to try it anyway and I did. Not only was it pretty counter-intuitive to me but it also had to have taken a far longer elapsed time from getting struck to going into the hole than any other putt I've ever had or have ever seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?

That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?
That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve."


Patrick:

I have no idea how many first time golfers would consider trying that putt or would even recognize it. Does that matter? The point is, it is there and it can be done.

This kinda gets into something I learned from Bill Coore when they were building Friars Head and the 7th green. He was just going apeshit over a potential putt and chip on a part of that hole. Then I said: "Bill, how many golfers do you think would even recognize that it's possible?", and he said: "I don't know but at least it is there and it's possible."

Patrick, THIS is what really great architecture is all about and it's those kinds of architects who can visualize that kind of nuance that it emanates from! 

Speaking of the 2nd green at PV----most do not know that Colt wanted to put it about 20-30 yards to the left and he wanted to put the tee for #3 at about the back middle of the present 2nd green. Crump would not have that and he put it where he originally had it on his routing before Colt arrived.

However, in Colt's hole by hole booklet that really doesn't have any internal (vertical) green contouring on it on any of the holes or green areas he drew in that booklet or on the big map we bought off Ebay, there is one really interesting little thing on the top of the page on that particular hole---eg #2. On the top of it there is this little doodle that matches the swales and inline rolls on that green if viewed from the front. Who did that little doodle? I have no idea but I doubt it was Colt. More likely Crump after Colt left since he did do the green in a place where it is now and to the right of where Colt proposed it. Plus what was used to mark it on the page was different than what Colt used in his booklet.

[archie_struthers]

 


Nothing like the second at PV that I've ever seen .....one of the most amazing things about the green is that even at warp speeds you can figure a way to get a four or five footer for a two putt....note the aforementoned Zorro putt by TEP  ..... for those who might not get what he speaks of you use the "Z" effect of two hills to cut the velocity caused by the dramatic downhill fall.

We used to speak of "parabolizing " big breaking putts ...to kill speed by playing into a hill and in effect playing for a two putt.....to go right at the putt was valiant...but stupid!

Not  sure if the second is quirky  ....  but it is brilliant...

[Jed Peters]

What exatly is this "magic 1.9 index," and why do players already below it not post non-tournament scores?  Surely it is not because they want to maintain an artificially low handicap so they can play in thsoe tournaments.........?

USGA.

And the guys I play with are good enough to not worry about going over that.

I'm the crappiest in the bunch.

[Jed Peters]

Patrick:

I can understand your game's intricacies and why you'd want to putt everything out then. Protecting the field, etc.

It should be noted that nothing is "given" in our group if there is a chance it's going to be missed--i.e. as the shittiest putter in the group, I RARELY hear "that's good" because I miss so many short putts.

I guess it's all relative to whom you play with....

Oh yeah, as for putting out, the 15ish or so stroke play tournaments a year I play in has helped teach me to put the ball in the hole.

Rob Chesnut (from here) plays in a game at his club where they do that....but a 12 inch putt at his club can break 12 inches as well....

[Doug Siebert]

"TEPaul,
How many first time golfers would ever consider trying the "Zorro" putt, especially in a competition ?
That putt takes a lot of practice and a lot more nerve."


Patrick:

I have no idea how many first time golfers would consider trying that putt or would even recognize it. Does that matter? The point is, it is there and it can be done

TEPaul,

Am I correct in recalling that you haven't ever played TOC?  If this Zorro putt is what I assume it is (deliberately aiming up high on one side, which then breaks across the direct line to the hole to the other side, and then down to the hole, forming a big 'Z') then you really owe it to yourself to fly to St. Andrews, skip the queue at the starter's shed for TOC and pay about $2 US to play the Ladies' putting course (Himalayas)  There are multiple opportunities for Zorro putts, and on one hole the last time I was there I found the best option to be a 'W' putt that crossed the direct line to the hole three times!

That doesn't even include what kind of crazy stuff you can do if you are smarter than I am and go before the kids get out of school so you could perhaps play the course "cross country" as it were instead of playing the course as intended.