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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Skilled Golfer"
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2003, 09:29:07 AM »
Scott,

I haven't played Double Eagle, though the reports that I have from a couple of people who have and whose judgement I trust is that a) it is not highly resistant to scoring, and b) it is not in the same class as the three or four other well-known Columbus courses.

I have played several Weiskopf-Morrish courses and I like their work very much.  It seems to me that they build a very playable, fun product, with a lot of options, some quirk, and occasional novelty.

Having been around Tom W in the 70s on numerous occasions, it perplexes me that such a seemingly intelligent, well-spoken, and apparently creative guy can be such an unpleasant character at times.  Personality aside, when I was at OSU, we dreaded to see him and Jim Brown riding around the course.  His tree plantings and occasional mounds to toughen-up Scarlet weren't welcomed by most.  However, his re-do of 17 green (where I've had some history), was not bad at all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: "The Skilled Golfer"
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2003, 11:53:29 PM »
Guys, I am trying hard to be even-handed in my view of RC based on my many experiences there, and trying to address potential problems, shortcomings, etc.  In that vein, I brought up that sometimes first thing in the morning the course is wetter than I'd like it (I probably should mention that I usually play RC around 6 a.m. this time of year, so when I say early morning i mean it.)  You guys are making it hard to be candid though, because it seems like you are reading what you want to hear into what I am writing.  
Quote
The bottom line is that David M. had it correct several posts ago.  It doesn't "work" when it's kept anything but firm and fast, exactly because the line coming in from the right ceases to exact any penalty whatsoever.
. . .

BUT... it doesn't play to the brilliance that it might.

That's kind of sad, but hey, the golf world isn't a fully happy place!
. . .
And then enjoy the hell out of it if you do catch it firm and fast!

David M. - I still defer to you re this golf course.  Am I close on this?

Tom, I am afraid you are not very close at all.  In fact, I am having trouble getting how you could come to these conclusions based on what I said.  RC 2 has "worked" just fine every time I have played it or seen it played.    As for the line from the right "ceasing to exact any penalty whatsoever"  where on earth did I say that?  

  The line on the right is always a much more difficult shot than the line on the left.  I have never seen it so soft that one need not worry about the possibility of the ball releasing through the green.  In fact, I cannot imagine a situation where trying to carry onto the green from the right would be a percentage play, just about from any distance, at any time of day.  When I say that it is sometimes wet and overwatered, I am not saying that the ball will stick or plug (I've never seen a ball plug at RC); it just might not run every time like we would like it to.  And, except on rare occasions, it dries up pretty early in the day.  This, by the way, presents its own set of problems on this particular shot, because if you play it to run alot and it doesnt, you aren't left with the easiest shot.  

As far as the course not playing to its full potential at every hour every day, what course does?  It is not as if you have to win the lottery to hit it on a hard and fast day.  Come play any day around 10 or 11 a.m. and you will have it plenty hard and fast almost all the time.  
Quote
So it sounds like the hole is strategic when it's playing rock hard, and not so strategic for the long hitter when it's soft because you can hold the iron in.  

Shivas, as I said above, the course never plays rock hard.  If it did, it would be virtually unplayable, and not just for the "unskilled golfer."  Further, I have played RC in all conditions, including first on the course after 3 days of rain, when rivers and lakes of water were visible on the fairways and greens 2 hours before we played, and it didnt play the kind of "soft" you are referencing.  Even that day, the grass was wet, but the ground maintained that springy feel under foot.  By the time we started our second nine, it hardly seemed as if it had rained.  It just never gets that soft, no matter how much water.  Miracle of sand, I guess.    

So 'soft' is a relative term, of course, and 'hard and fast' a relative phrase.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re:
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2003, 12:05:05 AM »
Quote
It is ironic to me that the skilled golfer who could take advantage of strategic principles generally find a way to play the course based on the theory that the shortest route is a straight line.  In the absence of severe wind, these guys can hit over bunkers or lakes and back-up a ball on anything but a large downslope.  Unlike most of us, they can stop a ball from heavy rough.

Lou:

I think you've nailed the mindset of the "skilled golfer" in this post.  They regularly play their game based on their belief that:  that the shortest distance is a straight line; that they can hit over bunkers, lakes, and back it up unless it is downhill; and they can stop the ball from heavy rough.  

RC eliminates much of the stuff that doesnt hurt the "skilled player" anyway, like excessive and repeated forced carries off the tee, carry bunkers, lakes, heavy rough.  

RC also takes advantage of their "straight line" and their "stop it on a dime" strategies with several holes where one or both of these strategies will not work a substantial portion of the time.  
______________
I don't know what a Tour pro would shoot under "normal" conditions, what ever that means.  I don't really think it is significant either.  Do you judge CPC by what a Tour Pro would shoot under "normal" conditions.  

For what it is worth, I do know that a number of Tour Pros have shot in the mid-high 60's to the low 70's at RC, with the lowest from a past or present Touring pro being around a 67, I think.  

Ed Getka predicted a winning score of a tournament under "normal" conditions as something like 30-35 under par.  I would be impressed if anyone shot four consecutive 64s.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

DMoriarty

Re:
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2003, 12:39:02 AM »
One more thing.  There are few pat answers at Rustic such as "Left or Right is better for the skilled golfer."  There are almost always multiple options with different advantages, and there is always the indecision and hesitation of not knowing if you are doing the right thing.  As for RC 2, Middle-right is definitely safer (if you stay out of the bunkers), but left affords a much better look at a potential birdie.  So which is better?  Who can tell?

A few pics of RC 2 for comparison's sake.  [NOTE:  My pics are poor quality and were taken from the OB fence.  So the angle is a little exagerated, but not by much.]

[Pics deleted to save space. ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: "The Skilled Golfer"
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2003, 06:29:10 AM »
More great stuff - thanks, David!

Hopefully those who haven't played the hole can now understand the issues better - if they care.

My take remains - keep it firm and fast, and oh yes, the strategies are right there and work very well.  Have it play soft, and it matters not.  I believe you said this yourself, more or less.

Unfortunately the green was pretty soft my one playing, but I am looking beyond that now - my apologies for not doing so way back when we first "discussed" this!  In any case after my drive sprayed right, I could clearly see I should have been royally screwed coming in from 200 from the right as I was... My only shot was the hit and hope 2iron over the bunker... I was as shocked as anyone when it hit the green and stopped within 3 feet of its pitch mark.

Damn I'd love to see Rustic playing screaming fast like Wild Horse does...my shot would have bounded way over... knowing this was gonna happen, I really would have had some choices to make on that shot...Oh well, I absolutely understand why it can't be kept that way generally.  Here's hoping many people do get to see it firm and fast.  That would be its proper maintenance meld, correct?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Skilled Golfer"
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2008, 05:08:16 PM »
Another fun one...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Carl Rogers

Re: "The Skilled Golfer"
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2008, 04:54:21 PM »
Why can't some of you distinguish between the highly skilled golfer and the merely high clubhead speed golfer?  There is quite a difference, isn't there?